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  #15441  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 8:53 PM
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What are their big infrastructure projects or buildings that Canadians feel jealous about these days? Boston's double digit billion dollar underground highway topped by bland "green space"? The imaginary California rapid transit projects? Those skinny condo towers for billionaires in NYC? If you asked the question in 1940 or 1970 there would be tons of answers because Americans built much more ambitious projects and Canadian cities were comparative backwaters.

I can also name a bunch of cutting edge European projects that have really interesting modern architecture, or great infrastructure projects, and lots of stuff in China that is being built far beyond the scale we see in North America.
There’s really nothing I can think of. The 2010s was really a lost decade for American infrastructure, where everything was invariably underwhelming, over budget or significantly delayed.

I’m also not reflexively anti-American but there’s very little I can point to in American cities right now where I can say “I wish we had that.”
     
     
  #15442  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 9:17 PM
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Even the 2000's weren't great although in the 1990's there seemed to be more of a sense that the US was doing well while Canada was behind economically. The 90's weren't a great period for North American urbanism in general, but those PoMo buildings were modern and exciting still.

Back around 2000 there was still a pretty tangible sense that planners and developers in Halifax were following Boston stuff. One developer proposed an ersatz Rowes Wharf waterfront complex for example, and a lot of construction around then had a postmodern faux historic feel. These days I don't see the same thing happening, and urban development in Halifax has headed in a different direction. The new urban and suburban buildings and districts look basically nothing like New England, historic or newer.

I don't get the sense that developers and urban planners in Toronto or Vancouver pattern much after the US either. To some degree cities like Seattle and San Diego have followed Vancouver, although the style is still a bit different. I find Vancouver's glass point tower with townhouses theme a bit dated at this point too. It was much better than average up until the early 2000's or so but now it feels like the same pattern is repeated over and over. It is still constrained by modernist biases against ornamentation.
     
     
  #15443  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 9:42 PM
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I've noticed that for all their wealth and size and history, American cities don't seem to offer up a lot to emulate in 2020. And I write that as somebody who often pushes back against anti-American sentiment.

What are their big infrastructure projects or buildings that Canadians feel jealous about these days? Boston's double digit billion dollar underground highway topped by bland "green space"? The imaginary California rapid transit projects? Those skinny condo towers for billionaires in NYC? If you asked the question in 1940 or 1970 there would be tons of answers because Americans built much more ambitious projects and Canadian cities were comparative backwaters.

I can also name a bunch of cutting edge European projects that have really interesting modern architecture, or great infrastructure projects, and lots of stuff in China that is being built far beyond the scale we see in North America.
One thing I will comment on is with regard to transit. I feel like for us it takes much higher potential ridership to justify the same level of investment. I mean, Denver embarked on a huge expansion of its electrified rail system spending over $6.5 billion US in 2010 dollars for a couple of commuter and light rail lines run by an agency whose entire weekday ridership is only about 340k per. Just imagine the ROI if Toronto were to spend that much. At US $300 million per km, we could have an entire new underground line stretching 22km (almost as long as the BD line) and probably more than their entire agency's ridership. Same thing in Seattle. They amount they spent on the Link LRT compared to its ridership is just... wow. We need to be less stingy with our capital investments.
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  #15444  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 9:57 PM
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If Toronto is jealous of Denver's transit spending:ridership ratio, don't get me started on Vancouver vs Toronto spending...

Canada line carries 150k per day, and costs only 100M per km, similar cost for Evergreen line.

York University has 2 subway stations each costing 150M; UBC is at the end of a transit corridor that carries 200,000 passengers... in buses.

Highway 407 has a subway station. lol
     
     
  #15445  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
One thing I will comment on is with regard to transit. I feel like for us it takes much higher potential ridership to justify the same level of investment. I mean, Denver embarked on a huge expansion of its electrified rail system spending over $6.5 billion US in 2010 dollars for a couple of commuter and light rail lines run by an agency whose entire weekday ridership is only about 340k per. Just imagine the ROI if Toronto were to spend that much. At US $300 million per km, we could have an entire new underground line stretching 22km (almost as long as the BD line) and probably more than their entire agency's ridership. Same thing in Seattle. They amount they spent on the Link LRT compared to its ridership is just... wow. We need to be less stingy with our capital investments.
Be that as it may, I'm not really jealous of any American rapid transit system. They may have lower thresholds for investments, but the quality of what gets built tends to be lesser. As much as I hate the Ontario Line's U bend around Corktown (it's inefficient and cheap), the routing of a lot of American transit systems is way more lacklustre. American transit systems are more likely to be wholly focused on funneling people downtown and little else. In at least the larger Canadian cities, there is more multi-nodal and multi-faceted transit systems. Shopping malls, secondary business centres, dense neighbourhoods, post-secondary institutions, etc often have very good rail or bus access.

Take Denver, for example. The west line completely goes past Colorado Mills without a stop. The closest stop is for a nearby community college, but even that station is separated by vast green fields from the campus itself. The southbound lines use the rail ROW rather than going down Santa Fe Drive, a walkable main street, which would probably benefit more of that community rather than skirting the western edges of it. The key shopping neighbourhood of Cherry Creek has no rail access. Nor does Colfax Ave, a busy arterial and main street. Rather than go through walkable residential districts like Berkeley, Sunnyside, and Highland, the northwest line goes largely through industrial areas of little density. The University of Denver station isn't anywhere near most of the campus buildings.

Looking at a map of Metro Denver, the light rail very clearly is designed to get people to/from three nodes, Downtown Denver, the airport, and the Tech Corridor. I'm guessing (hoping) that a well-oiled bus system fills in all of these blanks, as often the bus network is better at serving locals, but it really depends. Cities like Seattle and Portland have decent bus systems, but others don't.

Anyways, I'll take Montreal's overcrowded metro or Toronto's underbuilt subway over any American transit system. Even centralized Calgary has a BRT line that doesn't go downtown (MAX Teal).
     
     
  #15446  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 10:13 PM
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Well, I never said I wasn't grasping at straws.

Although I do definitely want to see more investment.
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  #15447  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 10:26 PM
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I think the only thing I'm jealous of in American urbanism is their legacy infrastructure and urban fabric. We don't really have ample cities filled with pre-war bones like Cincinnati or St Louis. We have some, and it tends to be less substantial. We don't have the art deco skyscrapers of Chicago, Detroit, or New York. Outside of Montreal and Quebec City, we don't have endless rowhomes or low-rise pre-war apartments (like tenements), like Boston, Philly, New York, Chicago, or Washington have. Halifax, Saint John, and St John's have some, but it's not as extensive. We don't have a lot of grand City Beautiful architecture like San Francisco does. Stuff like that. But the stuff happening now, and the conditions of urban life in Canadian cities vs American ones, means that there is little to be jealous of that isn't just historical legacy for us up here.
     
     
  #15448  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by le calmar View Post
I always thought Boston’s skyline was kinda short and not so remarkable, but that diagram puts things into perspective. There is a fair amount of buildings over 200 m, which is not so obvious given the table-top effect. That view of Montreal's skyline from the Champlain bridge is nice when you see it on a picture, but I always thought it was way more impressive in person.
I agree. Boston is one of my favorite US cities. (for reasons that have been mentioned), but the skyline is not particularly impressive.
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  #15449  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
I think the only thing I'm jealous of in American urbanism is their legacy infrastructure and urban fabric. We don't really have ample cities filled with pre-war bones like Cincinnati or St Louis. We have some, and it tends to be less substantial. We don't have the art deco skyscrapers of Chicago, Detroit, or New York. Outside of Montreal and Quebec City, we don't have endless rowhomes or low-rise pre-war apartments (like tenements), like Boston, Philly, New York, Chicago, or Washington have. Halifax, Saint John, and St John's have some, but it's not as extensive. We don't have a lot of grand City Beautiful architecture like San Francisco does. Stuff like that. But the stuff happening now, and the conditions of urban life in Canadian cities vs American ones, means that there is little to be jealous of that isn't just historical legacy for us up here.
You've written my exact thoughts better than I could. American cities have amazing bones. They just need more meat over it. Some of their second/third tier cities have prewar skyscrapers/monuments that would instantly make a top 10 list in Canada. Australian cities are on the opposite end of that.

In pictures it looks like this: this is Tulsa, a middle of no-where 3rd tier city. This could be downtown Toronto:





until you zoom out and see this:


Last edited by Robertpuant; Nov 17, 2020 at 11:24 PM.
     
     
  #15450  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 11:46 PM
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Let me know if those pictures derail the thread too much. I find it interesting to look at american cities after spending so much time in the Canada section.

This type of built is urban porn to me.


New Orleans




Detroit







Los Angeles

     
     
  #15451  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2020, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Although I do definitely want to see more investment.
It is frustrating that Canadians are, on the whole, quite receptive to transit, but Canadian governments are so stingy with capital spending on transit.
     
     
  #15452  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 12:34 AM
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I think the only thing I'm jealous of in American urbanism is their legacy infrastructure and urban fabric. We don't really have ample cities filled with pre-war bones like Cincinnati or St Louis. We have some, and it tends to be less substantial.
This is true but I think many Canadian cities are still far below their potential in terms of what their older parts could look like, adaptive reuse of the buildings, and sympathetic infill.

A few restoration projects and an added storey or medium-sized building here or there can really change the appearance of a block.
     
     
  #15453  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 12:59 AM
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This one is superb
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  #15454  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 1:05 AM
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It is frustrating that Canadians are, on the whole, quite receptive to transit, but Canadian governments are so stingy with capital spending on transit.
It would probably help if federal ridings in our major city centres were more competitive so that the incumbent MPs in those ridings were more willing to push for what their local constituents deem valuable rather than towing party lines. The recent LPC candidates in Toronto and York are a good example of finding yes-MPs rather than local constituents on the pulse of what residents and voters want.

It doesn't help at the provincial level that our largest cities are at the beck-and-call financially of the rest of their provinces. Boston is able to dominate MA, New York City is able to dominate NY, but Toronto cannot dominate ON and Vancouver cannot dominate BC in the same way, either proportionally in government or financially. It means that someone in Sudbury can dictate provincial funding in Toronto more than someone in Rochester can dictate state funding in New York City.
     
     
  #15455  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 1:22 AM
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Toronto is however the capital of Ontario whereas New York State's government sits in Albany
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  #15456  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Robertpuant View Post
You've written my exact thoughts better than I could. American cities have amazing bones. They just need more meat over it. Some of their second/third tier cities have prewar skyscrapers/monuments that would instantly make a top 10 list in Canada. Australian cities are on the opposite end of that.

In pictures it looks like this: this is Tulsa, a middle of no-where 3rd tier city. This could be downtown Toronto:





until you zoom out and see this:

Outstanding post. The third image, juxtaposed with the first two, is so jarring. Those amazing city blocks (in the first two photos) are an oasis in the desert.
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  #15457  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 1:51 AM
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Toronto is however the capital of Ontario whereas New York State's government sits in Albany
Obviously, but being the capital doesn't mean much if it's so much smaller than the alpha city in the jurisdiction (in New York's case) or not quite large enough to dictate everything (in Toronto's case).

What i'm getting at is that Toronto's politicians and their policies would be reflective of Torontonians if their provincial government was only servicing the 5-7 million people of the GTA as opposed to 15 million of Ontario as a whole. Same as how Vancouver's provincial priorities would be far more aligned with the city if they covered the 2.5 million or whatever the lower mainland is instead of the 5 million that BC is as a whole. Basically, decoupling major cities from the rest of their sprawly provinces would lead to better policies on the whole in those cities, in particular those relating to transit and housing. This can apply to any large urban city in any jurisdiction that doesn't quite represent the majority of that jurisdiction's populations/votes.

This same argument could be used for creating an Ottawa-Gatineau capital area, removing it from the grips of both Capitale Nationale and Queen's Park and creating a body better suited for building Ottawa internally rather than leaving and coming back with whatever provincial policy or funding is handed to them.
     
     
  #15458  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 1:51 AM
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^ Yeah, even Canadian cities with large sums of downtown surface lots (Edmonton, Winnipeg) aren’t quite as jarring as that Tulsa example. There are just so many entire blocks that are just surface parking lots...
     
     
  #15459  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 2:16 AM
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Those Tulsa images are shocking. Just jaw dropping. I definitely echo the desire for more expansive pre-war built form. Mostly because they're made of heavy, solid earth materials like stone that gives the city a real heft and because the scale tends to be more in the "missing middle" range, which for downtown are midrises and highrises between 8-20 stories. On the other hand, modern intensification mostly comes in the form of glassy towers that are too tall for the missing middle scale.
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  #15460  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2020, 3:04 AM
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Toronto does has some of that heavy, pre-war heft made even more impressive with crazy angles.

https://goo.gl/maps/1gjHVFnTK2TH3TcF9

https://goo.gl/maps/9bScvEwVfci7KRQX8
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