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  #1061  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Watson thinks the loop is an "interesting idea".
https://twitter.com/KatePorterCBC/st...98225736589315
Political speak for, "I'm waiting to hear what public opinion is."
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  #1062  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 5:52 PM
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The way they speak about it and the map they provide. But yes, that quote suggests otherwise.
This map?



To me the points at the end of the purple lines indicate the Gatineau LRT being able to continue into Hull or Ottawa on the loop.
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  #1063  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 5:57 PM
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The other. If they would have looped the STO blue around the orange loop, it would have been more clear. In any case, looks like the STO tram is integrated within the loop based on that quote and the map you posted.

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  #1064  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 6:02 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
But then he says Stage 3 is his priority. Watson's mind is often narrowly focused on his own pet projects and dismisses ideas proposed by other people.

McKenna's support might be more noteworthy:

https://www.facebook.com/boucletrans...2082562446981/
"Interesting idea" is a big deal coming from Watson
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  #1065  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I agree both are on the same type of rock. I disagree on the simplicity of cut and cover through bedrock.

Boring is much easier when dealing with solid rock than loose soil. Conversely cut and cover becomes more difficult with solid rock. With both methods you need to break up the rock and carry it away. With cut and cover you need to break up and dispose of enough rock for both the tunnel and a support structure on top that is strong enough to support the weight of the vehicles above it. With boring the rock above you provides most of the support and you only need enough support to prevent any shifting of the rock along fissures.

Then there is the issue of all the disruption to the street above when doing cut and cover, which is a whole other issue.
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I didn't say it wasn't possible. I just said the savings are minimal for cut and cover compared to boring and you end up with a lot more disruption on the surface with cut and cover.



So you want to burry the tram and close Wellington to traffic? I don't see that being a financially viable option regardless of the tunneling technology.
No I am suggesting to run both the tram and traffic underground just for the block and a half in front of Parliament
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  #1066  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 7:40 PM
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No I am suggesting to run both the tram and traffic underground just for the block and a half in front of Parliament
Sorry. I missed that. Those are going to be some pretty steep grades to get underground and back up again within 1.5 blocks (about 270m) and have some useable covered space above, or is that 1.5 blocks the covered part and the ramps would be on either side. If so, you would still only have about 120m to get back up to grade to cross the Plaza Bridge.
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  #1067  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Sorry. I missed that. Those are going to be some pretty steep grades to get underground and back up again within 1.5 blocks (about 270m) and have some useable covered space above, or is that 1.5 blocks the covered part and the ramps would be on either side. If so, you would still only have about 120m to get back up to grade to cross the Plaza Bridge.
Both ends of my proposed tunnel are already on downward slopes so the grading is practically already there. It's almost perfect really. Plus there is a sharp slope from the front lawn of Parliament down to the road that could be leveled to have a much lower angle slope down to the opposite block.
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  #1068  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 2:50 AM
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Ottawa-Hull rail loop isn't at the top of Mayor Watson's list of transit priorities
The newly formed Supporters of the Loop is renewing a call to create a transit loop that would connect tourist attractions and government offices in the capital's core.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Oct 28, 2020 • Last Updated 3 hours ago • 2 minute read


A rail loop connecting the downtowns of Ottawa and Hull is a tough sell for Mayor Jim Watson, who’s first trying to extend LRT to the fastest growing parts of his own city.

Watson said he’s most interested in bringing LRT to Ottawa’s western and southern suburbs. Those areas still won’t have rail service when the Phase 2 O-Train expansion is complete in 2025.

The newly formed Supporters of the Loop is renewing a call to create a transit loop that would connect tourist attractions and government offices in the core of the capital region on both sides of the Ottawa River.

“I think it’s a very interesting idea but I have to be very clear and consistent that my next priority for transit of any kind in our city is Phase 3, which goes to Stittsville and Kanata and Barrhaven,” Watson said during a press conference Wednesday.

The city’s next big funding request to the federal and provincial governments will be for the Phase 3 O-Train extensions, Watson said.

“That will continue to be my preoccupation and my priority is to secure the funding for that project.”

The rail loop is only a vision, although it’s been discussed in previous regional transit studies over the past 20 years. The route would use the Portage and Alexandra bridges as the interprovincial access points and complete the loop using Wellington Street in front of the Parliament Buildings and Laurier Street in Gatineau. The rail corridor connecting Wellington Street and the Alexandra Bridge, which is slated for replacement by the federal government, would need to be determined.

Société de transport de l’Outaouais (STO) is planning a rail system between Aylmer and downtown Ottawa using the Portage Bridge. STO is determining if a rail tunnel under Sparks Street to Metcalfe Street or a surface tramway on Wellington Street to Elgin Street is the best Ottawa-based corridor.

The Supporters of the Loop, which includes business leaders and former mayors, prefers a car-free Wellington Street tram option since it could be part of the rail loop.

In Ottawa, city hall has a council-endorsed plan to extend LRT to Kanata and Stittsville for an estimated $1.85 billion. In November, council will be asked to approve a $3-billion plan to extend LRT to Barrhaven.

The city doesn’t have a nickel to put toward the Phase 3 expansions. It will be leaning on the federal and provincial governments for all of the construction money.

It’s fine to talk about creating a seamless rail system between Ottawa and Gatineau, but it should be considered a Phase 4 project, Watson said.

Federal Infrastructure Minister Catherine McKenna, the Ottawa Centre MP, said during a mayor’s breakfast event this week that she hears from people calling for ambition and a treatment of Canada’s capital like a true capital region.

McKenna said “sometimes it’s like two fiefdoms” in Ottawa and Gatineau, but she credited the mayors for trying to consider the cities as a unified region.

When it comes to the idea of a loop, McKenna, too, said it’s a “really interesting idea” that would require feedback from the public.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...sit-priorities
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  #1069  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 1:15 PM
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The loop is in no way related to Stage 3. Gatineau is making its own funding request for the STO tram and completing the loop would not be all that expensive in the grand scheme of things, especially when we consider that Alexandra will be rebuilt with or without rail. The only thing the City of Ottawa has to do is vote on the plan. No planning, no expenses, nothing but allow the loop to go ahead.

I'm sensing a lot of selfishness from many (maybe most) on Ottawa's Council by viewing this as a Battle Royale for funds between the two cities.
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  #1070  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 2:22 PM
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Since 'The Loop' has not been suggested by the STO, and is not officially related to the Aylmer Tram, maybe discussion about it can be moved into its own thread. I would also include any discussion about the Ottawa Heritage Streetcar Project (OttawaStreetcar.com) in that new thread. While the Heritage Streetcar Project is not meant for commuting, it follows much of the same routing as 'The Loop'.
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  #1071  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Since 'The Loop' has not been suggested by the STO, and is not officially related to the Aylmer Tram, maybe discussion about it can be moved into its own thread. I would also include any discussion about the Ottawa Heritage Streetcar Project (OttawaStreetcar.com) in that new thread. While the Heritage Streetcar Project is not meant for commuting, it follows much of the same routing as 'The Loop'.
We probably already have threads for both, but I've been unable to find them going through the transportation topics. We have a whole lot of duplicates though.

I was debating if I created (or found an existing) downtown loop thread but decided to post it here since it would ultimately be an extension of the STO proposal. They did mention the possibility in recent publications and consultations.
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  #1072  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 2:40 PM
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Example of duplicate from 2007-2008:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=142131
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  #1073  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 3:02 PM
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Greg Fergus, who's been a huge advocate of the Aylmer-Ottawa tram supports the loop proposal.

The idea would be that the Feds planned and financed the loop and make arrangements with the STO to exploit the new infrastructure (so Feeds would own it, and the STO would "lease" the rights to use it, I guess). As this would be an interprovincial project, the Feds should be fully responsible for its implementation.

Québec's 60% would fund the Gatineau side of the project exclusively. Ottawa would fund the loop, but could still contribute for some of the project on the Gatineau side.

Pedneaud-Jobin wants to prioritize the current plan and options for the Ottawa side. The loop, he says, would be a nice add as a future phase. He thinks the Feds should make their own analysis separate from the STO (very efficient ).

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/g...10a834a66bc518
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  #1074  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
This map?



To me the points at the end of the purple lines indicate the Gatineau LRT being able to continue into Hull or Ottawa on the loop.
Could this be implemented in such a way that STO trams navigate the loop in one direction, (i.e. clockwise) and similar "NCC" trams navigate the same loop in the opposite direction? You'd have bi-directional traffic around the loop and the option to 'short-circuit' the loop if you chose, by transferring to the other tram if you wanted to.
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  #1075  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
Could this be implemented in such a way that STO trams navigate the loop in one direction, (i.e. clockwise) and similar "NCC" trams navigate the same loop in the opposite direction? You'd have bi-directional traffic around the loop and the option to 'short-circuit' the loop if you chose, by transferring to the other tram if you wanted to.
I like it!

We can call it... the Confederation Line!
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  #1076  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
I like it!

We can call it... the Confederation Line!
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  #1077  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
Could this be implemented in such a way that STO trams navigate the loop in one direction, (i.e. clockwise) and similar "NCC" trams navigate the same loop in the opposite direction? You'd have bi-directional traffic around the loop and the option to 'short-circuit' the loop if you chose, by transferring to the other tram if you wanted to.
I would definitely want to see bi-directional service but why add a 3rd transit provider?

Feds could simply mandate and fund a combined fare structure across STO and OC Transpo - long overdue and much discussed!
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  #1078  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Greg Fergus, who's been a huge advocate of the Aylmer-Ottawa tram supports the loop proposal.

The idea would be that the Feds planned and financed the loop and make arrangements with the STO to exploit the new infrastructure (so Feeds would own it, and the STO would "lease" the rights to use it, I guess). As this would be an interprovincial project, the Feds should be fully responsible for its implementation.

Québec's 60% would fund the Gatineau side of the project exclusively. Ottawa would fund the loop, but could still contribute for some of the project on the Gatineau side.

Pedneaud-Jobin wants to prioritize the current plan and options for the Ottawa side. The loop, he says, would be a nice add as a future phase. He thinks the Feds should make their own analysis separate from the STO (very efficient ).

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/g...10a834a66bc518
Not a terrible idea by Greg Fergus, but I agree with Pedneaud-Jobin. Move forward not backwards. I can see one of two things happening:

(1) Even though public consultation showed preference for a tunnel, STO is going to be forced by the feds to go with the Wellington with no traffic between Kent and Elgin option. This would leave it open for the Feds to build the rest of the loop on Laurier in Gatineau, over the new Alexandra bridge, and connecting into the planned terminus of the Gatineau LRT line at Wellington/Elgin. This is lower cost than the tunnel anyway, so STO probably wouldn't mind. Also it gives the option of Ottawa plugging a Rideau/Montreal surface tram into the loop at some point in the distance future (doubtful, but who knows, with a different mayor it could happen).

(2) OR, competing ideas will shelve the project until another study can be done. Then money from upper levels of government dries up before the study is completed and we get nothing.
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  #1079  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 4:24 PM
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The STO's studies are still very preliminary. The Feds could tell them to keep going on their end but insure that whatever option is chosen, the project has to be designed in a way that allows the loop to happen (even with a tunnel, which would be far more complicated, but not impossible). Once the STO is done studying and ready to build, the Feds could step-in and complete the loop.
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  #1080  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2020, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The STO's studies are still very preliminary. The Feds could tell them to keep going on their end but insure that whatever option is chosen, the project has to be designed in a way that allows the loop to happen (even with a tunnel, which would be far more complicated, but not impossible). Once the STO is done studying and ready to build, the Feds could step-in and complete the loop.
Continuing the loop with a tunnel option would be very difficult. Who knows, I've always liked the idea of adding a modern light rail flyover bridge over the historic Rideau Canal with a tunnel portal in the cliffside just under Wellington Street... but I have a feeling there may be a few naysayers.

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