Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation - Page 123

swimmer_spe · #**2441** Posted **Oct 6, 2020, 1:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

From Vancouver Urbanized:

The group proposing this line is "Mountain Valley Express" and they estimate construction costs to be between 7 and 16 billion dollars. The group acknowledges that extensive engineering analysis would be required to stabilize cost estimates. Their emphasis is on the costs savings between this line and an equivalent expansion of highway capacity.

Their estimates include a travel time of four minutes from Horseshoe Bay to North Vancouver. Whether they've factored in the political cost of proposing that infrastructure capable of supporting this being built across West Vancouver remains to be seen.

You know, if they had suggested a regular speed train, I would support it. A high speed train? Not a chance.

scryer · #**2442** Posted **Oct 6, 2020, 2:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You know, if they had suggested a regular speed train, I would support it. A high speed train? Not a chance.

I'm all about finding a green solution to connecting the region with this route but I also agree that they may be off with their choice in technology. If they proposed it as a regular speed train, I also think it would still attract a similar amount of riders anyways. I would like to see the complete break down of how they calculated those head-times.

AkariAkaza · #**2443** Posted **Oct 6, 2020, 5:56 PM**

It doesn't sound like I bad idea if they use something other than HSR, definitely better than that rail for the valley proposal

Bdawe · #**2444** Posted **Oct 6, 2020, 9:09 PM**

I don't think people have a strong grasp of how few people live in the Sea-to-Sky Corridor.

Like I'm into there-being-trains, and I think that they can and should be made high quality, I'm just not sold that there's enough social pay off in it in making them such that they manage to average 220 km/h

swimmer_spe · #**2445** Posted **Oct 6, 2020, 10:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I don't think people have a strong grasp of how few people live in the Sea-to-Sky Corridor.

Like I'm into there-being-trains, and I think that they can and should be made high quality, I'm just not sold that there's enough social pay off in it in making them such that they manage to average 220 km/h

I could see this working well for the skiing community. It could turn Squamish and Whistler into bedroom communities as well.

Tvisforme · #**2446** Posted **Oct 6, 2020, 11:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It could turn Squamish and Whistler into bedroom communities as well.

Given the short travel times they're proposing for the Whistler-Vancouver run, and the length of many existing commutes within Metro (1 hour or so), Lillooet could be a bedroom community with the high-speed line.

Vin · #**2447** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 12:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I don't think people have a strong grasp of how few people live in the Sea-to-Sky Corridor.

Like I'm into there-being-trains, and I think that they can and should be made high quality, I'm just not sold that there's enough social pay off in it in making them such that they manage to average 220 km/h

They can have a higher capacity high-speed commuter train going all the way to the Horseshoe Bay transfer station, and then those going further, and even for those going to Squamish/Whistler, can switch to a lower-capacity single or double-car railway. This is common in other parts of the world where railway travel is the norm. The line can be beefed up later when the population density along the corridor justifies the added expenditure.

The Great Western Railway trains from London's Paddington Station:

• Video Link

chowhou · #**2448** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 1:24 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Given the short travel times they're proposing for the Whistler-Vancouver run, and the length of many existing commutes within Metro (1 hour or so), Lillooet could be a bedroom community with the high-speed line.

Squamish is already a bedroom community of Vancouver, and from what I've heard Pemberton already almost is as well.

Only problem with Lillooet is, well, you have to live in Lillooet.

Aroundtheworld · #**2449** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 1:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I don't think people have a strong grasp of how few people live in the Sea-to-Sky Corridor.

Like I'm into there-being-trains, and I think that they can and should be made high quality, I'm just not sold that there's enough social pay off in it in making them such that they manage to average 220 km/h

I could see it being a big tourist draw that would help Whistler as well as Aquilini's planned Squamish resort.

For those wanting to try and draw this on a map, a few things to consider:

Turning Radii (4 km for 300kph)
Grade Changes
No level crossings

ilikeredheads · #**2450** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 2:14 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Okay, so now the interurban to Abby and Chilliwack is the second nuttiest train pitch in the Lower Mainland.

lol yeah.

This MVX concept is so ludicrous that it wouldn't even make sense if you post it in the fantasy thread.

These people clearly don't know how rail works, let alone HSR.

madog222 · #**2451** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 2:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

These people clearly don't know how rail works, let alone HSR.

I'm really interest in who these "academics and urban planners" are.

Migrant_Coconut · #**2452** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 2:56 AM**

A reminder that HSR is $55 million per klick. It'd be great for Squamish and Whistler... if we've got $6.5 billion lying around (just for the Sea to Sky stretch) and no SkyTrains left to build. At least the maglev to Seattle has an actual business case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madog222

I'm really interest in who these "academics and urban planners" are.

Anybody employed by a university (e.g. Stephan Nieweler or Patrick Condon). Tenure gives you enough social reputation to pitch whatever loopy, poorly-researched pet project you can think of without consequences.

cganuelas1995 · #**2453** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 3:22 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

[*]Turning Radii (4 km for 300kph)[/LIST]

To put it into perspective, that is from Broadway/Arbutus all the way to Kingsgate.

Hopefully people can settle for a working train, because at least you got a train. We can work on making it high speed later.

scottN · #**2454** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 4:22 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

More space per seat, for one. Given previous experience with flying coach, I'd argue that in this particular commute, legroom and a proper table is well worth losing an extra 45 minutes of your life.

Also the air can be freely circulated with the outside world. On aircraft the cabin is pressurized, so any replacement air brought into the cabin from outside needs to be compressed, which uses fuel. The same air is recirculated over and over.

aberdeen5698 · #**2455** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 3:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A reminder that HSR is $55 million per klick. It'd be great for Squamish and Whistler...

$55 million per klick - where? North Vancouver to Squamish is some of the most challenging terrain anywhere, surely a ROW that meets the curvature and grade restrictions of HSR is going to be a lot more than that.

scottN · #**2456** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

$55 million per klick - where? North Vancouver to Squamish is some of the most challenging terrain anywhere, surely a ROW that meets the curvature and grade restrictions of HSR is going to be a lot more than that.

Worst case would be tunneling the whole way. It's 36km of tunnel from horseshoe bay to squamish. Gotthard base tunnel is 57km long, double tracked and cost about 14 billion CAD - that's 245 million per km. I believe that trains generally run at 200km/h in the tunnel.

The seymour valley seems like it would be much more suited to railway construction. Long tunnels would still be needed to reach Squamish.

Tvisforme · #**2457** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 7:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottN

Worst case would be tunneling the whole way. It's 36km of tunnel from horseshoe bay to squamish.

"OK, so which mountain do you want to tunnel through?"

"All of them."

xd_1771 · #**2458** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 7:19 PM**

If you ask me the MVX ideas are not nearly as bad as everyone is making it seem.

The long distance components of the MVX are basically supposed to be a rail infrastructure alternative to big highway expansion. Think: instead of expanding Highway 1 through the valley from the (future) 6 lanes to 8-10 lanes, or instead of building a new highway corridor around 16th Avenue in Surrey/Langley; or instead of completely 4-laning the Sea to Sky. I don't believe they've set any specific timeline, so this could be viewed as a vision for a 20-40 year timeframe.

The Langley to Chilliwack portion could reasonably be instated as the commuter rail solution that Valley folk have wanted, and use the Highway 1 and Highway 10 (Glover Road) rights-of-way for inexpensive construction. A segment heading into Downtown Vancouver could be integrated with the cross-border high speed rail, using the same right-of-way. I already had an idea for something like this, since the proposed cross-border high speed trains aren't actually going to be that frequent, leaving room for all sorts of other service you can run in between those trains. Then pursue the North Shore extension as a 4th (or 3rd) crossing of the Burrard Inlet, which would also extend the reach of cross-border rail. Portland/Seattle to Whistler anyone?

If the provincial goverment were to study the concept, it could compare the benefits of building with high-speed-rail versus upgrading the existing rail line, or a number of hybrid solutions with high-speed and semi-high-speed segments. The Fraser Valley segment would definitely be suitable as HSR IMO and a study around the MVX concept would put high-speed Valley commuter rail squarely on the map, even if it's developed independently.

The costing the MVX group developed ($7-16 billion) is actually based on the same figures adopted for one of the studies for high speed rail linking Vancouver and Seattle/Portland. There's a detailed breakdown in their study.

Migrant_Coconut · #**2459** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 7:34 PM**

That's a lot of ifs; the Cascadia HSR is already super ambitious even with three major cities, so I'd want to see a whole lot more studies for a mere tourist/commuter line. Think of how many SkyTrains we could have for $7-16 billion.

cganuelas1995 · #**2460** Posted **Oct 7, 2020, 8:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottN

Worst case would be tunneling the whole way. It's 36km of tunnel from horseshoe bay to squamish. Gotthard base tunnel is 57km long, double tracked and cost about 14 billion CAD - that's 245 million per km. I believe that trains generally run at 200km/h in the tunnel.

The seymour valley seems like it would be much more suited to railway construction. Long tunnels would still be needed to reach Squamish.

14 billion worth of economic stimulation