The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Key word is investing. They are loans with private sector partners.

Loan or not. It's a good way to get the ball rolling. All that was ever needed was capital.

[J.OT13]

This is great news. Considering the massive (unavoidable) deficit, it's good to have at least a few programs that are loans as opposed to subsidies.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by niwell

Interesting - I haven't been to Hurdman station since I lived in Ottawa back in 2007, and didn't ride the LRT that far when I tried it out last year. I didn't really consider the older iteration to be pleasant (particularly in winter) so interested to see what it's like now, I can sort of see it from looking on google maps. As an aside it was one of the first major transitway stations I saw after moving to Ottawa - I remember it struck me as very strange to have this big bus interchange in what was basically a field yet surrounded by highrises.

Here are some images of the new Hurdman. The rail station itself is adequate in my opinion. Quite large and imposing. Decent amount of weather protection at the platform level, but it could stand to have had been a little more enclosed. Considering the trains go by every 5 minutes or less during the day (when it works), waiting in the cold isn't unbearable. One major issue though is that trains are often full by the time they get to the station at mornign rush hour, so many people get left behind. In the evening, maybe a third of the train empties out at Hurdman, which can be quite challenging wtih narrow isled LRT vehicles.

The concourse level is very open and windswept. It features washrooms (two single stalls I believe), a water fountain (blew up last winter) and soon a coffee kiosk.

The bus loop is offset from the elevated rail station, so it's a decent walk away, no weather protection at all. A few standard bus shelters are staggered along the way.


Note: the bus shelters shown near the station are used after hours only, I believe.




https://otrain.railfans.ca/confederation-stations/hurdman

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Here are some images of the new Hurdman. The rail station itself is adequate in my opinion. Quite large and imposing. Decent amount of weather protection at the platform level, but it could stand to have had been a little more enclosed. Considering the trains go by every 5 minutes or less during the day (when it works), waiting in the cold isn't unbearable. One major issue though is that trains are often full by the time they get to the station at mornign rush hour, so many people get left behind. In the evening, maybe a third of the train empties out at Hurdman, which can be quite challenging wtih narrow isled LRT vehicles.

The concourse level is very open and windswept. It features washrooms (two single stalls I believe), a water fountain (blew up last winter) and soon a coffee kiosk.

The bus loop is offset from the elevated rail station, so it's a decent walk away, no weather protection at all. A few standard bus shelters are staggered along the way.

The highlighted are what my main criticisms of the new Hurdman are about.

Given that it is a MAJOR transfer point for buses, it's not a minor consideration. Hurdman also being the starting point of the southeast Transitway BRT which is the rapid transit for the entire SE part of the city, which has a dozen stations and is at least 10 km long or more.

[SaskScraper]

Introduction of Saskatoon's 3 BRT lines

• Video Link


https://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-news/dedicated-bus-lanes-remain-on-third-broadway-in-transit-plan

[niwell]

Thanks for the pics - the train portion does look quite nice. I wonder if they went with the inadequate bus transfer situation because they thought it wouldn't be worth doing more right now with imminent expansion? Regardless I would imagine Hurdman remains an important bus interchange station with the south transitway connection.

It was pretty warm out when I rode the LRT but the Tunney's Pasture connection wasn't great either - in that case I can see why it wouldn't be worth doing more right now. Of course I've also been spoiled by the TTC which for all its faults has fantastic surface/subway connections!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The highlighted are what my main criticisms of the new Hurdman are about.

Given that it is a MAJOR transfer point for buses, it's not a minor consideration. Hurdman also being the starting point of the southeast Transitway BRT which is the rapid transit for the entire SE part of the city, which has a dozen stations and is at least 10 km long or more.

100% agree. Bus loops were clearly an after-thought when Stage 1 of the Confederation Lien was built. The City can be forgiven for Blair and Tunney's since they are "temporary" termini, but Hurdman will remain a major bus-rail transfer for decades to come, so they should have designed the bus loop as so, similar to what we see in Toronto.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by niwell

Thanks for the pics - the train portion does look quite nice. I wonder if they went with the inadequate bus transfer situation because they thought it wouldn't be worth doing more right now with imminent expansion? Regardless I would imagine Hurdman remains an important bus interchange station with the south transitway connection.

It was pretty warm out when I rode the LRT but the Tunney's Pasture connection wasn't great either - in that case I can see why it wouldn't be worth doing more right now. Of course I've also been spoiled by the TTC which for all its faults has fantastic surface/subway connections!

Hurdman is the only fare-paid bus transfer terminal on Phase 1 that will remain a large bus terminal permanently (Tunney's and Blair being temporary termini). For this reason, while I think investing any more in Tunney's would have been a waste, I do agree that more effort could have been put in at Hurdman given the permanence of its design.

One thing that has to be kept in mind, however, is that the TTC's surface/subway connections, while awesome for rider experience, are very expensive. I read somewhere that with the new Spadina line, the bus terminals at the stations cost around $1 billion. It's unlikely Ottawa would have been able to build such an extensive LRT network with Phases 1 and 2 if they insisted on TTC-style indoor bus interchanges. (From what I gather, this is a general theme with the TTC - the reason why the subway has barely been extended over the decades is because the high standards they use for everything from bus terminals to tunnel shapes make the per km cost of everything they do absurdly high).

At Tunney's Pasture, the large distance between the bus stops gets criticized as well, but it should be noted that given the enormous number of buses that pass through Tunney's at peak, bus stops needed to be adequately spaced apart to ensure buses can service the loop without needing to yield to each other, otherwise there'd be enormous backups. Anyone who remembers the old days of the Transitway before it closed for conversion will remember how insane the backups could get at major stations like Hurdman, where your bus would often be stopped for 2-3 minutes outside the station waiting for its turn at the platform.

[Acajack]

There is definitely something Soviet about the experience of walking in a crowd from the Hurdman O-Train platform to the distant, dimly-lit SE Transitway bus stops on a dark and cold winter's evening.

I am not in that area very often but have done it a few times, and that's always the impression I get.

Pushkin could have written poems about shit like that. (Though he lived long before Soviet times.)

[niwell]

I feel like desolate wind and snow-swept plains are a theme in Canadian literature as well, so I guess that also works.

[scryer]

Is that network all one phase for Saskatoon? For some reason the audio didn't work for me in the video . And will ALL of the network have bus-only dedicated lanes? I know, these are noob questions but I'm asking anyways!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Introduction of Saskatoon's 3 BRT lines

Buses will run in mixed traffic for the entire route except for two short segments? Is that right?

Seems like a hug improvement in service, but to call it "BRT" is a stretch.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Buses will run in mixed traffic for the entire route except for two short segments? Is that right?

Seems like a hug improvement in service, but to call it "BRT" is a stretch.

In places with less congestion, you can have far less infrastructure and still have just as good reliability and speed. An exclusive lane is not the be all and end all demarcation of BRT.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

In places with less congestion, you can have far less infrastructure and still have just as good reliability and speed. An exclusive lane is not the be all and end all demarcation of BRT.

Very true. I'm not familiar enough with Saskatoon to form a complete opinion.

[jamincan]

The Saskatoon BRT looks like a great initiative. I think cities are recognizing that there are major improvements that can be found simply through network and schedule rationalization. Coupling that with infrastructure in key locations will likely result in a significantly improved experience for users and hopefully justify further improvement in the future.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Buses will run in mixed traffic for the entire route except for two short segments? Is that right?

Seems like a hug improvement in service, but to call it "BRT" is a stretch.

It reminds me of the express bus network Kingston rolled out over the last couple years. It was wildly successful and transit ridership doubled in the 5 years after it launched.

[SaskScraper]

^ Saskatoon's current Express Buses and the BRT initiative have a range of differences that make them not comparable with each other.

Express Buses generally pick up passengers at one or multiple park and ride locations in suburban communities and then travel, non‐stop, via freeways or other high speed corridors to the central Downtown district where passengers disembark. These buses tend to operate only during peak commute times and mainly serve regional riders providing increased pedestrian traffic to local businesses, retail, restaurants and healthcare, but during limited times.

BRT buses typically operate on local streets, with stops about every half‐mile, run every 10 to 15 minutes throughout the day and serve both local and regional riders. BRT buses may travel in dedicated lanes and often use signal priority systems to reduce delays from traffic congestion. In typical BRT systems, passengers wait for the bus at higher‐quality stations with shelters and pay before they board using ticket vending machines located at the station.

Originally Posted by jamincan

The Saskatoon BRT looks like a great initiative. I think cities are recognizing that there are major improvements that can be found simply through network and schedule rationalization. Coupling that with infrastructure in key locations will likely result in a significantly improved experience for users and hopefully justify further improvement in the future.

That seems to be Saskatoon's plan, spending $150 million on it's BRT system in the next couple years, with couple stretches with dedicated lanes for now, new ones added later. The BRT system is built to be expandable and as it becomes busier and warrants more dedicated lanes, more investment will take place on the system.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

In places with less congestion, you can have far less infrastructure and still have just as good reliability and speed. An exclusive lane is not the be all and end all demarcation of BRT.

True, as a comparable example, Richmond Virginia's BRT development study plan from a few years ago suggested they would have a 65% increase in bus speed and 33% decreased travel time for riders with BRT.

BRT would create additional opportunities to increase system‐wide efficiency for city transit and further improve service on local bus routes as well as increase ridership of their overall city transit system.

http://www.ridegrtc.com/media/annual_reports/BRT_FAQ_7-20-2015.pdf

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

In places with less congestion, you can have far less infrastructure and still have just as good reliability and speed. An exclusive lane is not the be all and end all demarcation of BRT.

I mean, it kind of is. You have to have some standards, otherwise what's the point of having a distinct brand for BRT if it is just a bus running in mixed traffic? IMO, what the "BRT" in Calgary represents is really just the bare minimum of what buses should be. It's just a nice shelter and buses every 20 minutes.

[Truenorth00]

20 mins???

I wouldn't call that BRT no matter what the definitions say.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

20 mins???

I wouldn't call that BRT no matter what the definitions say.

And I would agree with you. Calgary's new BRT routes are 15-20 minute frequencies and mostly run in mixed traffic, though there are 2 high quality bus ROWs that definitely would meet the criteria of BRT, but those routes also have extensive sections of mixed traffic running.