The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[SkahHigh]

What do the Toronto guys think of the Ontario line compared to the original Relief line?

Personally, the lack of connexion to the West parts of Yonge and Bloor lines irks me. Hopefully it's planned as part of a 2nd stage?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

What do the Toronto guys think of the Ontario line compared to the original Relief line?

Personally, the lack of connexion to the West parts of Yonge and Bloor lines irks me. Hopefully it's planned as part of a 2nd stage?

Although the Ontario Line has its positives, like going further north-east and having a more modern/adapted technology (likely REM type rolling stock/operations as opposed to heavy rail), it replicates the RER service at too many points. For the downtown portion, I would prefer the wide "U" previously proposed as the Relief Line as opposed the Ontario Line "W".

[Nouvellecosse]

The main thing that irks me is that they plan to emerge it and run a surface section along the Lakeshore East corridor for about 2km. There are local complaints being made about the potential for noise, plus I'm worried that this is limiting the future option to widen the LSE corridor if necessary. The entire suburban Yonge extension to Vaughn in underground as is the proposed Bloor extension in Scarborough. Suburban extensions would be a great place to save money with surface and elevated sections while right in the dense heart of town, the investment should be made in underground infrastructure. Yet this is when they're trying to cheap out. Ridiculous.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

What do the Toronto guys think of the Ontario line compared to the original Relief line?

Personally, the lack of connexion to the West parts of Yonge and Bloor lines irks me. Hopefully it's planned as part of a 2nd stage?

I think it’s superior to the original RL in most ways.

It is not just meant to relieve Bloor-Yonge station but to relieve Union station-bound GO passengers whose destinations are the fast-growing office districts around King St west of Spadina and east of Sherbourne. It does this with a relatively easy transfer at GO’s Exhibition station and at a new station just east of the Don River.

The original RL also ended very prematurely at Osgoode on the west and Pape in the northeast. It would have been very difficult and disruptive to expand the line in either direction even though there is a pressing demand for it right away. In that sense, the OL probably cost us 2 years but bought us 20.

On a final point, I think that it’s becoming apparent that 20th century heavy metro technology is going the way of the dodo bird. Automated light metro, like the REM, has the same capacity at lower cost. The only places where new lines (not expansions of existing lines) use old, heavy metro technology are Asian megacities. Even Europeans have given this up. I think you’re seeing the same thing in Montreal. It seems unlikely that any entirely new lines will use metro technology rather than REM.

[Nouvellecosse]

The only difference between "heavy metro" and "light metro" is train length. Metro systems can be automated regardless of their train length, while train lengths can vary significantly whether or not they're automated. These aren't two separate, discrete technologies with one displacing the other. Automation is simply an improvement that can be added to new (and many existing) systems.

But yes, a city can get by with shorter trains now under automation than it could before. But some cities (and some lines within individual cities) already had much shorter trains than others just based on the characteristics of the different systems and lines.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The main thing that irks me is that they plan to emerge it and run a surface section along the Lakeshore East corridor for about 2km. There are local complaints being made about the potential for noise, plus I'm worried that this is limiting the future option to widen the LSE corridor if necessary. The entire suburban Yonge extension to Vaughn in underground as is the proposed Bloor extension in Scarborough. Suburban extensions would be a great place to save money with surface and elevated sections while right in the dense heart of town, the investment should be made in underground infrastructure. Yet this is when they're trying to cheap out. Ridiculous.

I live in the effected area. I'm tired of people saying if you live in the city and want more transit to deal with the losses. This is the most densely populated area with parks and historic homes that is under threat. And like you said, why are the suburban areas below ground and not this section. If the Ford Government thinks it can just ram it through this neighborhood they are in for a fight. Riverside, Leslieville, and the Danforth area are pro transit hoods, we just want it built as it was always intended, below grade.

Below is a map showing what might be lost if it's not done right. It also shows the track layout needed. Talk about screwing over a neighbourhood and I'm convinced Doug is doing it because nobody voted for him or his brother here.

Posted on Blog.T.O

[niwell]

If they can prove it can actually be done with minimal disruption to the neighbourhood I'm open to it but I still have some pretty strong reservations on that. The Metrolinx blog post about this section doesn't really answer any real questions at this point. For a government that has railed about transit belonging underground, and pushing for a below-grade Eglinton West extension it seems very odd that this section is to be above-grade.

[hipster duck]

^I don't know who's on Metrolinx's comms team, but they made a mistake in selling the surface alignment between the Don River and Gerrard as a cost savings measure, rather than a convenience measure. The fact is, it is a lot more convenient for GO-RER transfers than the original RL and greatly improves the OL's utility.

If you present it as a cost saving measure, well, that goes down like a fart in a spacesuit when you mail the expropriation letters to Leslieville residents.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The only difference between "heavy metro" and "light metro" is train length. Metro systems can be automated regardless of their train length, while train lengths can vary significantly whether or not they're automated. These aren't two separate, discrete technologies with one displacing the other.

"Heavy" vs. "light" is a nebulous term that's only used colloquially, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

What I mean is that the original RL was built for the profile of the existing TTC subway. That means long trains, wide trains, wide curve radii, shallow grades for climbing up a hill, and other things that would have made it quite cost prohibitive.

The TTC sunk themselves by essentially choosing the train technology first and then engineering the physical capital around that. The results show how impractical the line would have been for many users. Gerrard Station, which was supposed to be a transfer point to the elevated GO line, was 40 meters (13 stories) below the surface.

[J.OT13]

New virtual museum celebrating 150 years of transit in the capital:

https://www.octranspo.com/en/virtual-museum/

The website includes some "Then and Now" images, including the Transitway vs Confederation Line.

Looks really cool. Could spend quite some time exploring this new content.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

New virtual museum celebrating 150 years of transit in the capital:

https://www.octranspo.com/en/virtual-museum/

The website includes some "Then and Now" images, including the Transitway vs Confederation Line.

Looks really cool. Could spend quite some time exploring this new content.

Hurdman Station, 1986 vs 2020.



Blair Station, 1990 vs 2020.

[Chadillaccc]

Details on the new Victoria Park Stampede Station. The current station is being demolished as part of the 17th Avenue extension into Stampede Park.

[ssiguy]

I remember taking the Transitway in 86 when I was at Carleton.

The Transitway was great and really fast but it never lived up to it's potential because the city never completed they key point............downtown.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I remember taking the Transitway in 86 when I was at Carleton.

The Transitway was great and really fast but it never lived up to it's potential because the city never completed they key point............downtown.

That pretty much sums it up; very efficient where we had Transitway sections, but the system was very disjointed with major gaps in infrastructure, such as downtown and the Ottawa River Parkway. To boot, much of the route served empty fields, parking lots and industrial areas, though I guess we can say the same about the Confederation Line. At least we're seeing more TOD now than in the previous 30 years.

[Innsertnamehere]

The Ottawa apartment market seems to be really taking off these last few years.

I'd say Phase 1 of the LRT is a little too short to be functional, but once phase 2 is up and running Ottawa is going to have a pretty incredible transit system for a mid-sized city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Hurdman Station, 1986 vs 2020.

Hurdman was a more pleasant place to wait for a bus back then than it is to wait for a train today.

[niwell]

Interesting - I haven't been to Hurdman station since I lived in Ottawa back in 2007, and didn't ride the LRT that far when I tried it out last year. I didn't really consider the older iteration to be pleasant (particularly in winter) so interested to see what it's like now, I can sort of see it from looking on google maps. As an aside it was one of the first major transitway stations I saw after moving to Ottawa - I remember it struck me as very strange to have this big bus interchange in what was basically a field yet surrounded by highrises.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Interesting - I haven't been to Hurdman station since I lived in Ottawa back in 2007, and didn't ride the LRT that far when I tried it out last year. I didn't really consider the older iteration to be pleasant (particularly in winter) so interested to see what it's like now, I can sort of see it from looking on google maps. As an aside it was one of the first major transitway stations I saw after moving to Ottawa - I remember it struck me as very strange to have this big bus interchange in what was basically a field yet surrounded by highrises.

It wasn't great but it at least had the advantage of having enclosed waiting areas which the new O-Train station does not.

The new configuration feels like you're in the middle of an open windswept prairie in the winter with very little shelter.

[Truenorth00]

The Feds are investing $1.5B in the Electrification of transit.

https://electricautonomy.ca/2020/10/01/federal-investment-zev-bus-charging/

This is exactly what I was suggesting should be done. Good to see. They're aiming for 5000 electric buses on the road by 2025. That is about 7% of the 50 000 school buses and 20 000 transit buses on the road. Getting the ball rolling though should kickstart lots of transition plans.

[MalcolmTucker]

Key word is investing. They are loans with private sector partners.