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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #10741  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2020, 9:40 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Originally Posted by Express691 View Post
https://buzzer.translink.ca/2020/09/broa...bMmN76p80w1oqESEtPIqbx0Q8rLhhvhYB-Txo6So


These are fine except the first station. There is a balance between placemaking and practicality, and this will be annoying to type out during delays, making signage for construction, and what else...

Also, another bout of inconsistency: There is a theme of stations have hyphenations that involve major universities. VCC-Clark. Production Way-University. Lafarge Lake-Douglas. Why wasn't SFU added to Surrey Central? Douglas at New West Station? KPU near Lansdowne? 

Hyphenation in general is good when the names are short. Even buses now just sign "Brighouse station" because the name is too long
Does it really matter? No, it'll just be a secondary name like the Art Plaza that gets included in all the official documents that no one uses. Maybe one day Emily Carr will be cancelled and they'll have to rename the station.

https://canadianart.ca/features/the-trouble-with-emily-carr/
     
     
  #10742  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2020, 10:05 PM
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These are fine except the first station. There is a balance between placemaking and practicality, and this will be annoying to type out during delays, making signage for construction, and what else...
I'm sure people will adapt. Everyone still says VCC-Clark, but nobody, not even buses, say Brentwood Town Centre. Buses don't even say Production Way, just Production Station. We'll probably end up just calling this Great Northern Way.

Last edited by chowhou; Sep 17, 2020 at 10:25 PM.
     
     
  #10743  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2020, 10:54 PM
dandor31 dandor31 is offline
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Pretty happy with the names.

Surprised "Mount Pleasant" is recognizable enough to be a name unto itself. Would have thought "Main St" would be appended to it to help with wayfinding. Something like "Mount Pleasant - Main St".
     
     
  #10744  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2020, 11:08 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Originally Posted by dandor31 View Post
Pretty happy with the names.

Surprised "Mount Pleasant" is recognizable enough to be a name unto itself. Would have thought "Main St" would be appended to it to help with wayfinding. Something like "Mount Pleasant - Main St".
I think Main Street would be too confusing with the Expo Line station.
     
     
  #10745  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2020, 11:18 PM
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I think Main Street would be too confusing with the Expo Line station.
Main St - Mount Pleasant would work. Then even the tourists can understand that one's down the street from the other.
     
     
  #10746  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 2:08 AM
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Ok let me try and be clear this time.

It's winter and all trains need an attendant, we only have the current OMC's, but more trains due to the Artbuts extension as it has opened to revenue service.

How many trains can we store during this snow day were less then say 14 trains system wide are running (Long trains).

How many trains could the following track area outside of the OMC's hold?
  • Waterfront from inbound to outbound switch before station to both tail tracks
  • Pocket tracks along Expo and Millennium line
  • King George outbound Platform and both tail tracks
  • Langford Lake (SP) inbound to outbound switch to tail tracks
  • Arbutus station outbound to inbound switch to both tail tracks past the station
How much capacity would all these locations provide for storage if we were running bare bare min revenue service levels?

I hope I have made this clearer
     
     
  #10747  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 2:19 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Slam the Tram? One assumption to rule them all: Jan 2019 Rail Rapid Transit to UBC

I've been going on about the Rail Rapid Transit Jan 2019 report and how I don't like how I perceive it as "slamming the tram" by certain suggestions that don't seem right (you can see my comments from before?). I was honestly trying to make a "what is the best for Vancouver" decision. Whether you believe that or not, or if you question my motives, so be it. I question the motives of the Jan 2019 document, but who cares what one person thinks?

I dug deeper into Jan 2019 Rail rapid transit to UBC studies assumptions based on gut feeling. I decided to write about what I found here. It's not complex, but the proof uses probability theory 101 from university (proof pulled from documents linked below), but I explain it in plain text and no math is required. The interesting statistical proof of it is in a link near the end where you have to re-read what I have written here and then proceed to some nice tables where the flawed assumption about LRT capacity is at once revealed and questioned.

I'm undecided on what technology choice is best.

BTW: I also like the namings of the station. They are simple.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Rail Rapid Transit Study to UBC from Jan 2019 is fundamentally flawed. It states the maximum sustainable headway is 4 minutes instead of 2 minutes for the LRT, where 2 minutes was the initial headway given to the LRT by previous studies/experts on the same subject and then quashed as not practical in this report and this effectively gave the LRT half the capacity and a no-go for a technology option right from the start of the assessment. I am not convinced that this is true and that for 1 billion dollars or more in savings, more study should be done on the matter. Based on the selection criteria and final conclusions of the Jan 2019 Rail Rapid Transit Study from Arbutus to UBC, it is safe to say that this capacity decrease is the primary reason why LRT is not even on the table. Who would build a system that goes out of capacity in 15 years? No one would. And that is effectively the case against LRT. It is all based on what appears to be an assumption that should be challenged and questioned. In the next sections I will give about 10 reasons why I don’t think this is a fair assumption at all (with links to documents). Basically, by using some statistical math (Probability 101 in uni) and using worse dwell times, worse traffic conditions, worse traffic signal management that is being used in Jan 2019 report and the same infrastructure allowance (one bus berth), I show that 2 minute headway can still be maintained and is regularly maintained in developing countries at higher rates. In addition, the 99 B-line from commercial drive to arbutus is already maintaining uni-directional bus headway of 2 minutes currently during peak times of day, so the 4 minute headway assumption is not valid.

The Jan 2019 study was the first document that made a skytrain technology choice (and the most recent) and it was fed to the Mayor’s council of transit where they maintained their preferred option to UBC was skytrain, but mentioned it “is not a regional priority”.

The fundamental flaw of the Jan 2019 study is where most of the conclusions are drawn from a model of the transit system. The transit max capacity of the LRT was downgraded in this Jan 2019 report from 14,400 to 7200, where a previous study on the same subject suggested 14,400 was a valid assumption. I am challenging this downgrade.

This one downgrade and this one assumption (with no deep dive scientific/factual based observations from other documents or even rudimentary study of the existing traffic from Arbutus to UBC which would already exist) is the reason why the skytrain surpasses the LRT option. The LRT option costs half as much.

I don’t know if the LRT is the best option. However I surmise that it won’t be travelling very fast down the corridor with frequent intersections (can’t get up to speed on 7km stretch) and the peak headway will be 2 minutes during rush hour (in the morning), when there are few people crossing the street and this headway will only be in one direction. I also surmise that this is sustainable and for someone as competent as Translink: easy to operate. The business along Broadway will likely like it better (especially underused sections) and there will be opportunity for medium density all along it’s length. A tram coming every 2 minutes (worst case) and travelling slow..can easily be crossed?

Previous documents/experts maintained 14,400 as the max capacity of the LRT. The difference is that the headway of the system was questioned. In the previous report a headway of 2 minutes was assumed. In this report, there was cold water and doubt splashed over this headway of 2 minutes and 4 minutes was used instead. This effectively changed the whole dynamics of the report as the capacity of the LRT was cut in half. Keep in mind that BRT systems can get 10-15000 pphpd. There will be some evidence throughout that indicates this, but my main goal is to throw serious doubt on the one thing that changed all the outcomes for the LRT.

I believed the report the first 10 times I read it. I don’t know anything about headways, bus bunching, Traffic Signal Priority (TSP) or semi-exclusive ROW (ROW B), active vs passive or conditional vs unconditional TSP, bus boarding time, dwell time, or how capacity is measured or configured or calculated for BRT or LRT systems in ROWs. However the report has some very questionable assumptions as I have already pointed out in this forum and this report seems to “slam the tram”. So where there is fire…. I decided to investigate myself. From here to the end are paragraphs describing why I believe 2 minute headway during peak time in one direction is sustainable. I read about 100 documents on BRT and LRT planning in order to come to this conclusion: This is an assumption I’m making and I'm not an expert, but it is not a complicated science. There could be a traffic engineer or COV capacity engineer that reads everything I write and says...well...there is this one assumption which he is making that makes everything he (santak003) is saying invalid, but I reiterate that I’m not an expert. However, operationally there is a significant wealth of knowledge for this old industry and 2 minute headways for Bus BRT is quite normal (30 seconds for Delhi) and even when in semi-exclusive ROW’s. So what follows is just quotes from various on-line links that show why I think there was an error in judgement when downgrading the capacity of the LRT:


The Jan 2019 report states:

“The Phase 2 Report operating plan indicates that the LRT 1 option would operate on a 4-minute headway with ‘full signal priority.’ However, the type of priority given to transit is not clearly defined within the operating plan. “

However, For LRT, it is common practice that unconditional TSP is used, which is exactly what the above is implying. The previous authors are experts in the field as well.

We can see below that operating full block lengths and unconditional TSP is expected. In fact, in every rail capacity book, there is an assumption that unconditional TSP is used for at grade crossings. For Buses, the type of TSP becomes important, but not for the Tram. It says the the rule of thumb is one transit signal cycle time can be used as headway, but as a rule of thumb, 2x the traffic signal cycle time can be used and sustained.

Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_webdoc_6-c.pdf

“Where, as is often the
case, light rail train lengths approach the downtown block lengths, then the throughput is
simply one train per traffic signal cycle, provided the track area is restricted from other
traffic. When other traffic, such as queuing left-turning vehicles, prevents a train from
occupying a full block, throughput drops as not every train can proceed upon receiving a
green signal. A common rule of thumb is that the minimum sustainable headway is double
the longest traffic signal cycle on the at-grade portions of the line. “

I am not talking about full block trains and only 2 car trains. Certainly when building the ROW B in the median, the left turn lanes can be accommodated? I don't go into this much, but either does the Jan 2019 document and I can find nothing online about it. The rule of thumb above is clear: 2x the traffic signal cycle time. From the Jan 2019 document of Rail Rapid Transit to UBC it is clear the traffic signal cycle time in Vancouver is 1 minute.

From the Jan 2019 Rail to UBC Rapid Transit Study, it also talks about the rule of thumb, but then goes on to change the fate of the LRT:

“With these above factors in mind, the shortest possible headway for every transit unit to be able to take advantage of TSP is 2x the traffic signal cycle time. However, one must also consider that transit units travel in two directions along the Broadway corridor. As such, the bi-directional headway must be 2x the traffic signal cycle time, with the one directional headway no less than 4x the traffic signal cycle time, in order for every transit unit to be able to request TSP activation. “

This is one very large assumption being made. That it is 4x the headway. It disagrees with every document out there.

When looking at the 99 bline buses the wiki states:

“Today the 99 B-Line operates on a 2-minute headway in the morning peak direction, with a 4.5 minute day base headway.”

So we can see that it is already using directional headway not bi-directional.

The Jan 2019 report also assumed BRT TSP will be used (not active/unconditional, but active/conditional). For LRT’s it is normal to do unconditional/active TSP for at-grade crossings. TSP is not expensive and is usually not centrally done. Most TSP studies find a 20% improvement in through traffic (for Bus BRT) and negligible (2%) impact to other traffic. But the documents out there suggest for a tram, that unconditional is used. In fact in a bus survey done for North American systems with 30 different cities, 50% were using First In First Serve, active/unconditional TSP for Bus BRT. So it’s quite popular for Bus systems. It is quite normal to have direction of travel in the Traffic Signal Priority. So again this 4 minute headway is a questionable assumption with bi-directional 2 minute headways which are not required at any time of the day.. More work should be done on this. It appears to be very feasible to have a 2 minute headway as the original document suggests.





Now, there are definitely issues when approaching 60% theoretical capacity of the line. It is a fundamental concept of transit capacity that from 60-100% theoretical capacity there are slow downs for a number of reasons, one of which is that the on-boarding time slows down and this impacts the dwell time. However LRT (just like skytrain) has multiple doors to help this out. And more card readers. In a 40m train on the gold coast in Australia, there are 8 doors for example. Also, the Jan 2019 Rail Rapid Transit Study to UBC is careful to use practical capacity and not maximum capacity. However, first step is to determine maximum capacity.

The best document I’ve been able to find that explains these concepts with minimal mathematics (only probabability theory 101 from university is required):


Public Transport Capacity Analysis Procedures for Developing Cities
Jack Reilly and Herbert Levinson
September 2011
http://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/.../697190ESW0P1170d0Quality0of0Service.doc



For the technical details from that report with tables and further proof that 2 minute headway is normal in practice etc just click this link, but you have to reread everything I said and then continue to the further proofs with nicely formatted tables.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_-aSdehWkkGMiw3LrlcwnU0FVW5Go_MAQKx6yjKvHUg/edit?usp=sharing
     
     
  #10748  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 2:54 AM
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Last edited by Reecemartin; Nov 18, 2020 at 1:04 AM.
     
     
  #10749  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 4:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Main St - Mount Pleasant would work. Then even the tourists can understand that one's down the street from the other.
Many people refer to "Main Street-Science World" as "Main Street Station" or just "Main"

Haven't heard of anyone uses only the second part.

After all, many people refer to station by their first word only.


I'm pretty sure if it's fine to use "Burquitlam" and "Inlet Centre" as station name, then it will be fine for "Mount Pleasant"
     
     
  #10750  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 4:17 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is online now
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Many people refer to "Main Street-Science World" as "Main Street Station" or just "Main"

Haven't heard of anyone uses only the second part.

After all, many people refer to station by their first word only.


I'm pretty sure if it's fine to use "Burquitlam" and "Inlet Centre" as station name, then it will be fine for "Mount Pleasant"
"Mount Pleasant" is, IMHO, a fine name for a station. It describes where the station is, clarifies any mixup with "Main" or "Main Street" and is evocative in its own right.
     
     
  #10751  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:01 AM
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Why is it broadway city hall? It should be Cambie city hall.
     
     
  #10752  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
Why is it broadway city hall? It should be Cambie city hall.
my guess is because the station wont have its own entrance. so its really not a new station. just an expansion of the Canada-Line station.
     
     
  #10753  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
Why is it broadway city hall? It should be Cambie city hall.
It is an existing station.
     
     
  #10754  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:28 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
That's fine, we can agree to disagree. Not having an Arbutus extension yet creates a lot of unknowns that could go either way.



If you meant ridership, TransLink's going on the assumption that it'll be a 4-5x increase like for the Canada Line over the 98 B-Line; we had a similar 3-4x increase for the Evergreen over the 97, so we've kinda gotten used to TransLink's estimates being lowballs. IMO a fivefold increase is entirely possible now that Central Broadway is Bloor in all but built form.

If you did mean capacity though, doubling is a fact. A SkyTrain can carry 5-10x as many riders as an articulated bus.
I guess that is an important part to iron out. What would be the capture on day one etc... I guess that is what the model is for. I would like them to be more certain of the risk of each approach before mothballing. I've put another post after doing some research and I find their capacity decrease of the LRT doesn't make sense to me and I had a feeling it was wrong.

With an LRT out to UBC...you could extend the system easier. It would have the most cars in the system. Not sure if there are any economies of scale.

Skytrain may be required for the density they are expecting...I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it. Skytrain is a future harbinger of density if Vancouver continues to expand as expected. So sometime down the road, you should get a lot of density, but when is the right time to pull the trigger?
     
     
  #10755  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:42 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Originally Posted by scryer View Post


Another misconception on the Skytrain to UBC that I feel is perpetuated to the public is that it is an extension fully dedicated to just students. Last time I checked UBC is another large employment sector for people of all trades, and it also has a lot of tourist attractions like the Museum of Anthropology. Although I am not denying that it would mostly be used by students (of which there is a huge student population commuting there), I do strongly believe that the demographic that would use the Arbutus > UBC sections is much more diverse than what mainstream channels are telling us.



Another good post .

You've summed up the reasons why I am always saying that most surface LRT systems are marketed incorrectly as Rapid Transit to the public.

Some of the reasons why I like the Arbutus LRT as outlined in the city files are the following:

- The space is mostly already there and the construction would have minimal impacts along the Arbutus greenway.

- The Arbutus route that the LRT system would be constructed on couldn't be constructed as a Skytrain line unless it was elevated or tunneled. One of which, NIMBYs will nail themselves to the East Van cross over; and the other option would be too expensive to justify the line. Therefore, IMO, the LRT Arbutus line is a nice Goldilocks technology in this case to address the needs while staying relatively in budget since it wouldn't need a lot of tunneling or elevation.

- This would be a full blown ancillary system that would appropriately complement the rapid transit network that has the potential to expand into destinations like the downtown peninsula.

- The system is not being marketed as a rapid transit system; rather it is using a green technology to address capacity issues. It's not pretending to be anything other than a streetcar.

Would I support the Arbutus streetcar over the Skytrain extensions to UBC and Langely (or even Port Coquitlam) - absolutely never. The Skytrain system extensions, for me, will always take priority over the development of ancillary transit systems. But I cannot deny that the Arbutus greenway LRT would be a great start to an LRT streetcar system in metro Vancouver.

In terms of who is using the corridor, someone should know by now. We can't plan a system extension without understanding our customers. Someone knows. If now, it would be hard to determine the demographic of the new users: 1) brand new to town and young and likely to use public transport 2) car driver that works or goes to school there and decides to switch. The Jan 2019 technical study clearly indicated that the majority of the crush and growth was students. They do get cheap transit option as well.

The LRT vision (as I'm reading in between the lines and as being revisited by yourself and others) is a slow moving, somewhat frequent, not very large tram that connects into downtown and is not rapid transit and I find it interesting you mention it is a green technology to help with capacity issues.

However, what if the arbutus corridor stretch could become slow moving, but still high volume, by just adding cars. It can ... at any moment, become high volume...for free. That is not something you get every day. That seems odd to me and I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I would think that there would be some chance of this becoming more in the future..because it is there.

It is interesting you mention the NIMBY quadrant. As that is likely the reason why the Arbutus to UBC is seems so politicized to me: there are voters involved.

How come everyone is worried about the streetcar streetscape? It must be the medium density. So would they rather have massive developments at the underground stations themselves. Those stations must be irresistible targets for density and if it's all underground..more density. You don't get transit without density and you don't get density without transit. Or do they not like a train going down extremely busy broadway? Aren't we supposed to prioritize transit? I mean...do the NIMBY's drive and they don't want to be slowed down..there must be some like that. What are the majority of the voters going to do if they put a streetcar down the tracks...revolt? Is that an issue?
     
     
  #10756  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:47 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Agreed, but I think you're mistaking the City of Vancouver with Metro Vancouver (the regional level of government).
Transit in the region is governed by TransLink which is a governmental body created by the Province of BC
and is essentially an offshoot of Metro Vancouver (former Greater Vancouver Regional District) with a Board comprised of municipal representatives.
https://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/98030_01
Yeah..sorry about that. It's the way I used to talk about things..a bad habit. I've been reading enough to know too much..but I do know about the municipal planning structures, but don't have a clue how the politics work.
     
     
  #10757  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:52 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Surface LRT: a bit better than a bus for a bit less cost than rapid transit.

It's a niche that just doesn't make sense to me in a city that's used to Skytrain levels of service.
If it's all risk vs cost...I would like to see that argument. What you say makes sense, but I've never seen anyone make that business case argument. That Jan 2019 study for rail rapid transit..did look at LRT from a business case point of view and risk point of view and cost point of view, but it was really the operational capacity that threw everything in favour of the skytrain if you read the document.
     
     
  #10758  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 5:58 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Broadway has shown that we can scale buses up to the point where grade-separated rapid transit can take over. Surface LRT is superfluous as an intermediate step.
I would agree that it scales to that point or closer than we thought. But there is still an intermediate step in between and maybe that intermediate step is not the right one if it is over capacity at the start. But we should be able to prove that. The business case is for how many years?
     
     
  #10759  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 6:03 AM
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Originally Posted by micmiko View Post
Agreed. Where's the data that supports an Arbutus-to-Main streetcar will be busier than Arbutus-to-UBC? An Arbutus LRT (from any point of Arbutus, either south along the CP tracks or north along False Creek) should be the lowest priority transit investment, after Broadway Phase 2 (UBC) SkyTrain, Langley SkyTrain extension, Guildford-Newton line, and SFU gondola. Let buses prove that such a route will have that demand. If infinite money allows a toy streetcar along False Creek, though, I think it would be a very nice complement to the available transit choices for Vancouverites.

As an anecdote, when I was in Kaohsiung, Taiwan, I took their toy LRT line along their waterfront. It was really nice and relaxing, but it took a whopping 40+ minutes to get from one end of the line (a subway interchange station) to another subway interchange station, when I could have done that trip by subway in 20 minutes. As a tourist trap, I would probably ride it once and never again. Very few locals used it, especially if the faster, more reliable subway connection is available.

As for why the Canada Line should be a model on how to build (or how not to underbuild) the automated Skytrain system, it is precisely because it's experience that can be drawn locally. There is no need to extrapolate from other cities where LRT has worked 'well' because the way those cities built LRT is fundamentally different. I would say the Fraser Valley is probably the best place for an LRT, followed by Richmond (to Steveston), but I don't think ridership will ever justify an LRT line to the latter.
All good points.

I really hope they are using the Compass Card system data correctly to see where people are coming and going. That will give all the data needed for a relief line.

How long people will travel....if it is not overcrowded ... or when they choose to shift to something more comfortable..or if they go one stop...should be in some way measurable.

It's being marketed as a green solution for capacity issues..is what someone said on this forum. So there must be some numbers. It does make some anecdotal sense..as the connections into downtown are the busy parts...and that is where this streetcar will sit...before downtown..connecting the lines..and from the look of the timings..not taking too long....and from the looks of the planning..comfortable..and nice views.
     
     
  #10760  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2020, 6:06 AM
santak003 santak003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Depends. Let's say you're going between OV and Main Street - are you really SkyTrain-ing all the way to Granville/VanCityCentre instead of just taking the tram?

Granted, the OV-Arbutus and Waterfront-Main connections are a lot less competitive, but they still serve as a helpful relief valve; anybody with something to do along the way (and there's a lot of that) is going to be using the tram instead of the SkyTrain. That takes pressure off the busiest part of our network.
We agree on something.
     
     
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