Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[cganuelas1995]

Any word if they are gonna be putting in a pedestrian scramble at Broadway City Hall? I feel like they should in the meantime.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i think they should be adding in the Crossroads entrance when they build this station. it would be the right thing to do. there is no reason not to. this is the perfect time to do it. literally, only 5 fare gates? that is insane.

realistically, the SW corner should have provisions for an entrance. that way the NW, SW, & SE corners get entrances.

the future NE corner should have provisions as well so that, just in case, all 4 corners have options for entrances. that would be the ideal world.

Worth noting again that most foot traffic comes to/from the B-Line; the extension means that those transfers are now inside the farezone and won't enter or exit. But yes, the need for more entrances (addressed here) and faregates as Cambie gets denser is a likely concern... for 2035 and beyond.

As for Crossroads, the current station plan makes that entrance unusable.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Any word if they are gonna be putting in a pedestrian scramble at Broadway City Hall? I feel like they should in the meantime.

Let's hope so. There's been talk of Broadway itself getting an overhaul post-extension, which would be a great time to bring that up.

[s211]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Any word if they are gonna be putting in a pedestrian scramble at Broadway City Hall? I feel like they should in the meantime.

Are you kidding? Stand there for awhile and watch entitled pedestrians waddle across, entering the intersection with mere seconds left before a red light. Can you imagine the mess with the additional waddling distance if they introduced scrambling? The mere name "scrambling" is a joke. The day a pedestrian actually scrambles is when exactly?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by s211

Are you kidding? Stand there for awhile and watch entitled pedestrians waddle across, entering the intersection with mere seconds left before a red light. Can you imagine the mess with the additional waddling distance if they introduced scrambling? The mere name "scrambling" is a joke. The day a pedestrian actually scrambles is when exactly?

I am guessing you have never seen one of those crossings. They work quite well, and prevent the pedestrians from blocking road traffic when lights are green.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing you have never seen one of those crossings. They work quite well, and prevent the pedestrians from blocking road traffic when lights are green.

Exactly.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i think they should be adding in the Crossroads entrance when they build this station. it would be the right thing to do. there is no reason not to. this is the perfect time to do it. literally, only 5 fare gates? that is insane.

realistically, the SW corner should have provisions for an entrance. that way the NW, SW, & SE corners get entrances.

the future NE corner should have provisions as well so that, just in case, all 4 corners have options for entrances. that would be the ideal world.

There's a very good reason not to add the Crossroads entrance - they put the Canada Line in the way. My understanding is that the potential entrance was reserved for the eventuality that a future Broadway tunnel would have platforms to the west of Cambie. We now know that the platforms will be to the east. To access the Crossroads space they would have to add a tunnel for pedestrians underneath the Canada Line, which would add significantly to the costs, and the engineering risks. (They'll be tunneling under for the tracks).

I think they're reserving the possibility of adding a north-east entrance, but they're not acquiring the land or pursuing that option at the moment. If/when that corner gets developed, it might make sense to create an entrance there.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing you have never seen one of those crossings. They work quite well, and prevent the pedestrians from blocking road traffic when lights are green.

Vancouver doesn't know how to use them we have had two of them on Robson and nobody scrambles, its really quite ridiculous.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

there is too much traffic for Cambie & Broadway to have a scramble walk. traffic cant be stopped for that long at that intersection.

there should be underground connections, outside the farezone connecting all the buildings, to all the corners with the surface closed to pedestrians. Broadway should have an underground building connection network similar to the Bentall Centre/Vancouver Centre.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

there should be underground connections, outside the farezone connecting all the buildings, to all the corners with the surface closed to pedestrians. Broadway should have an underground building connection network similar to the Bentall Centre/Vancouver Centre.

Wow, you must really hate people with strollers and in wheelchairs. Fortunately for pedestrians, your idea will never happen.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

there is too much traffic for Cambie & Broadway to have a scramble walk. traffic cant be stopped for that long at that intersection.

there should be underground connections, outside the farezone connecting all the buildings, to all the corners with the surface closed to pedestrians. Broadway should have an underground building connection network similar to the Bentall Centre/Vancouver Centre.

I suppose Tokyo's Shibuya Crossing and Toronto's pedestrian scramble at Bloor and Yonge are complete design flukes that are single handedly gridlocking those cities then?

Design cities for people, not vehicles.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

there is too much traffic for Cambie & Broadway to have a scramble walk. traffic cant be stopped for that long at that intersection.

there should be underground connections, outside the farezone connecting all the buildings, to all the corners with the surface closed to pedestrians. Broadway should have an underground building connection network similar to the Bentall Centre/Vancouver Centre.

You mean like at Portage and Main?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I am most happy about the fully integrated City Hall station. Great news!

But still only one entrance/exit point. It will be awfully crowded in the future. The design of the tube-like hallway makes it really rushed once you step inside. There aren't any nooks where you can pause, or wait for people, etc. Certainly not the most comfortable skytrain station I've been.

[officedweller]

A switch at Arbutus for a potential spur makes sense, although there are a few maybes.
- If there is a 'X' cross over east of Arbutus Station to facilitate reversing trains for terminus operations you already have the tunnel to tunnel connection (assuming separate bores) to send westbound trains down Arbutus - just add the switches west of the 'X' to send trains south to the Arbutus corridor.
- This assumes an Arbutus Line would be SkyTrain technology (rather than LRT).
- A branch line might funnel Arbutus trains to the M-Line rather than a separate line to downtown (adding congestion to Broadway City Hall Station transfers).
- Even if Arbutus is a separate SkyTrain line to downtown, the switches would facilitate the transfer of trains.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by officedweller

A switch at Arbutus for a potential spur makes sense, although there are a few maybes.
- If there is a 'X' cross over east of Arbutus Station to facilitate reversing trains for terminus operations you already have the tunnel to tunnel connection (assuming separate bores) to send westbound trains down Arbutus - just add the switches west of the 'X' to send trains south to the Arbutus corridor.
- This assumes an Arbutus Line would be SkyTrain technology (rather than LRT).
- A branch line might funnel Arbutus trains to the M-Line rather than a separate line to downtown (adding congestion to Broadway City Hall Station transfers).
- Even if Arbutus is a separate SkyTrain line to downtown, the switches would facilitate the transfer of trains.

Why not leave space for it, but not install the switch till there is a need to put it in?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Vancouver doesn't know how to use them we have had two of them on Robson and nobody scrambles, its really quite ridiculous.

Can't really blame them. Last time I was there, the Hornby one looked just like a regular intersection.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

there is too much traffic for Cambie & Broadway to have a scramble walk. traffic cant be stopped for that long at that intersection.

there should be underground connections, outside the farezone connecting all the buildings, to all the corners with the surface closed to pedestrians. Broadway should have an underground building connection network similar to the Bentall Centre/Vancouver Centre.

We don't need an underground crossing (yet) as much as a functional surface crossing - traffic in the right-turn lane is frozen anyway while pedestrians walk. Freeing up half the street is well worth a twenty-second wait.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not leave space for it, but not install the switch till there is a need to put it in?

Because then trains will be running over that space? You'd have to either disrupt service or install it in the graveyard shifts.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because then trains will be running over that space? You'd have to either disrupt service or install it in the graveyard shifts.

If it were designed such that it could be as simple as dropping in the needed switches, it likely is a weekend shutdown.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not leave space for it, but not install the switch till there is a need to put it in?

Service interruptions.
Presumably, an Arbutus line would be built after the UBC extension, so Arbutus Station would be a through station rather than a terminus at that point.
You would also need to demolish the tunnel wall, so if they are installed early maybe knockout walls could be installed as well.
An X crossover would probably be in a special structure rather than bored tunnel, so it could be factored in.
... but you need to have the foresight to place the x crossover in the correct location to facilitate it (not too close to the east of Arbutus station and not west of it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it were designed such that it could be as simple as dropping in the needed switches, it likely is a weekend shutdown.

So how would the engineers design it for that to happen? On top of that, why go through all that trouble when there's no real reason to leave the switch out in the first place?

[santak003]

Originally Posted by logan5

If I'm lobbying for LRT, I would say that for probly much less than the cost of Skytain from Arbutus to UBC, you could build an LRT line from Main Street/Science World to UBC.

The line could utilize a right of way that is already there up to 16th and Arbutus, where it would turn west on 16th (which has a wide median that could accomodate LRT) towards UBC. There would be a very strong network effect with this line, as it would connect with 3 Skytrain lines in the Metro Core.

I don't know where I am on it. I do like surface running light rail. There seem to be lrt's all over Canada's big 6 (or 7) cities, but nothing in Vancouver.

The interesting thing about the Jan 2019 skytrain to UBC alternatives study is it's first online exposure of the traffic modelling system in use. This model shows the effects of what people will do when we change the transportation system around (cars/buses/lrt/skytrain/traffic lights). When a system is already volume bound, by increasing capacity somewhere, you have the unfortunate side effect of making the system slower usually, if you don't carefully plan. LRT doesn't seem to soak up all of the latent demand of the corridor, but I'm not sure yet. Also, future demand (past the latent demand, meaning more jobs and people living in the arbutus to ubc stretch) doesn't seem to change the load profile past 2045.

Given that we have about 5 skytrain stops with low demand, why not build out there before building out in UBC? LRT may actually make the world more car dependent because the system doesn't have capacity and no one wants to wait in line ups. So I'm still looking at that pivotal Jan 2019 document because it's the right approach, but I'm not sure I see all the angles yet. They also want to make Broadway a great street. Even if we shave off a couple of lanes, it will take some significant architecture using some great minds to pull it off. I can't see how anyone can feel safe on a truck route. The stretch past Arbutus and what people usually call West Broadway (greek town to some), does feel different and is thinner. Even thinner, with bike lanes will require some artistic and architectural minds to make Broadway great. A lot of great streets have LRT running through them, but I haven't seen the latest versions of LRT in other cities in Canada recently. I used to live along King street in Toronto a long time ago, but everything has changed. What is best for this city? We managed to stave off the highway, unlike every other major city in Canada and I'm hoping our planning will make the right choice. For COV, they say they don't want to talk anything but skytrain to UBC, but I'm still reading the Jan 2019 document to see their argument as the document's argument is complicated, but it's the right approach to model volume of traffic and psychological decision making. I certainly concur that when I plan to get around the city I think....ok..skytrain..fast and reliable...I'll go that way.

I think Cambie will be the only North/South RRT and that they will double track portions and who knows what else to increase peak past 12000 ppphd, and most indications are for an 8 minute headway 18km/h trolley service running down Arbutus with 400 - 800m stops (16,19,25,33 etc) with a maintenance facility in the flats with the major north south part not even being discussed with any document available online as to timing. UBC is a major employment center and people don't like to transition from one service to another. Most of the volume and the major planning for volume is all around students though and not employment (but I could be misunderstanding the latent demand as by 2045 there are 70k students modelled):


"School enrollment projections at UBC ....This is the primary variable that is driving
ridership increases on the rapid transit alternatives to/from campus"
[Rail to UBC Rapid Transit Study - TransLink
Jan 2019]

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...9_01_24_technical_report_rail_to_ubc.pdf


Mobility pricing will move the bar more than anything else for mode share. I think in order to cross Broadway street (and make it great), they have no choice to but slow traffic down as they cannot eliminate it. This is probably why the planning document of Jan 2019 slows down the lrt speed from arbutus to ubc, because currently the bus can and will move more than 25km/h avg(It has to in order to move all the additional people from Commercial to Arbutus stops and keep them going to the end). By changing the volume of the line and putting the bulk of the people at Arbutus station, there will significant consideration for moving those people so there isn't queues several blocks long but I'm dead certain the planners no know this already.

I'm trying to understand why such a bias towards skytrain and what are all the assumptions. It's hard to understand decisions when you don't know what you don't know. (I understand what everyone has posted here to defend skytrain). I want what's best for the city in the long term. Whatever will be will be though.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So how would the engineers design it for that to happen?

Harking way back to Canada Line constuction, here's a few pics of the X crossover at Waterfront Station emerging from the twin bore tunnel from Tafryn Palecloud. You can see it is in a special box structure and the twin bore tunnels are distanced away from each other.

August 27, 2008


http://canadalinephotos.blogspot.com/sea...0Z&max-results=20&start=31&by-date=false


http://canadalinephotos.blogspot.com/sea...0Z&max-results=20&start=31&by-date=false


http://canadalinephotos.blogspot.com/sea...0Z&max-results=20&start=31&by-date=false


http://canadalinephotos.blogspot.com/sea...0Z&max-results=20&start=31&by-date=false