O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[OCCheetos]

Stadler has a battery-electric version of the FLIRT. The Trillium Line is pretty much a perfect use case for it tbh with overhead charging infrastructure at either terminal station.

Not sure if there are any performance differences between battery and regular electric power.

I have to imagine it would save on some of the costs at least.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The GO train locos are diesel-electric. Their math on electrification had notable speed gains. Why would it be different in Ottawa? EMUs have more traction and accelerate quicker. This is known. The question on benefit is one of station spacing. GO benefits because stations are 5 km apart. At 2-3 km apart, the savings for Trillium won't be be more than 10-20s per stop.

Acceleration would be an ancillary benefit of electrification. Not the reason for it.

The reason for electrification is to stop spewing diesel fumes into the air.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caboose

The reason for electrification is to stop spewing diesel fumes into the air.

One of many reasons. And not close to the primary reason at all. GO has massively increased service in Toronto using diesel locomotives. They chose diesel trains for the Union Pearson Express. It's not like they are extremely concerned about emissions.

Electrification is primarily about increasing frequency and capacity in most jurisdictions, while reducing operating costs. That is what makes the large capital cost required worthwhile (GO RER is a $12 billion project for example).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caboose

what would be the cost of electrification of the line?

Probably a billion with twinning the tracks and conversion of rolling stock to electric.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Probably a billion with twinning the tracks and conversion of rolling stock to electric.

Maybe it's better to look to battery conversion like these Stadler Flirts

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/media/art...olstein-local-transport-association/522/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caboose

Maybe it's better to look to battery conversion like these Stadler Flirts

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/media/art...olstein-local-transport-association/522/

First, not all of the billion is for electrification. There will be substantial cost to twinning the line.

Next, the tradeoff between line electrification and battery electric trainsets would require a detailed study. You'd have to see how long it takes to charge at either end and whether that drives the need for more trainsets and/or extra tracks. It's not straightforward to decide that off the bat.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

First, not all of the billion is for electrification. There will be substantial cost to twinning the line.

Next, the tradeoff between line electrification and battery electric trainsets would require a detailed study. You'd have to see how long it takes to charge at either end and whether that drives the need for more trainsets and/or extra tracks. It's not straightforward to decide that off the bat.

According to Stadler's press release, under normal conditions, it could do 150km on a charge. Put the charging infrastructure at Bayview at the second platform and at Limebank at the other end.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by caboose

According to Stadler's press release, under normal conditions, it could do 150km on a charge. Put the charging infrastructure at Bayview at the second platform and at Limebank at the other end.

What the press release says and how it would perform in an operational setting with HVAC running in our climate and acceleration and deceleration every 3 km is a different matter. As it stands 150 km of range, would allow 7 one way trips. That's 3.5 hrs hrs of running. The question is how much does 5 mins of charging during changeover at each terminus add. And how does that lineup with the level of service required. Like I said this requires analysis and modeling. Not back of the envelope math discussed on an internet forum.

There's also the question of whether that trainset would comply with our safety standards, which are different from Europe. Bringing the design to compliance may not be cheap. Possibly not competitive as the first customer with a small order.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What the press release says and how it would perform in an operational setting with HVAC running in our climate and acceleration and deceleration every 3 km is a different matter. As it stands 150 km of range, would allow 7 one way trips. That's 3.5 hrs hrs of running. The question is how much does 5 mins of charging during changeover at each terminus add. And how does that lineup with the level of service required. Like I said this requires analysis and modeling. Not back of the envelope math discussed on an internet forum.

There's also the question of whether that trainset would comply with our safety standards, which are different from Europe. Bringing the design to compliance may not be cheap. Possibly not competitive as the first customer with a small order.

You really do't like the Trillium Line do you?

In a press release on the South Wales Metro project, they are buying Flirt trimode diesel, electric, battery. When the battery dies, switch to diesel, or plan charging better.

Stadler is a Swiss company. They get snow in Switzerland, don't they?

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The GO train locos are diesel-electric. Their math on electrification had notable speed gains. Why would it be different in Ottawa? EMUs have more traction and accelerate quicker. This is known.

You can't compare heavy American built locomotives and a light european EMU/DMU. Also you fail to get the point.

The FLIRT are not just your regular Diesel-Electric train. There's vitually no difference between the ones that run fully electric (with overhead catenary) and the ones we're going to have. That is because instead of building a train specificaly for Diesel-Electric motorisation, Stadler chose to build the trains the same way they'd build the EMUp, but instead of having Pantographs to supply current to the motors, a power-pack placed midway between the 4 cars will generate the currant instead.
The day (if it ever happens) that Ottawa decides to Electrify the Trillium Line, they'll only have to remove the power-pack and retrofit the trains with overhead catenary (yes yes the trains are premade a with a slot on the roof just for that).
The Diesel-Electric locos of Go-trains are not only much heavier, they can't be retrofited, they carry enormous tanks of fuel and are much older technology. Not mentionning that they carry 12 double-deck cars that we're made back in the 80s/90s with much heavier material then modern trains.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

You can't compare heavy American built locomotives and a light european EMU/DMU. Also you fail to get the point.

The FLIRT are not just your regular Diesel-Electric train. There's vitually no difference between the ones that run fully electric (with overhead catenary) and the ones we're going to have. That is because instead of building a train specificaly for Diesel-Electric motorisation, Stadler chose to build the trains the same way they'd build the EMUp, but instead of having Pantographs to supply current to the motors, a power-pack placed midway between the 4 cars will generate the currant instead.
The day (if it ever happens) that Ottawa decides to Electrify the Trillium Line, they'll only have to remove the power-pack and retrofit the trains with overhead catenary (yes yes the trains are premade a with a slot on the roof just for that).
The Diesel-Electric locos of Go-trains are not only much heavier, they can't be retrofited, they carry enormous tanks of fuel and are much older technology. Not mentionning that they carry 12 double-deck cars that we're made back in the 80s/90s with much heavier material then modern trains.

Correct. But removing the power packs and going to catenary still reduces weight and should improve acceleration. Not as much as replacing a GO Train with EMUs that I agree with. And I never said it did. Only that electrification can produce gains over diesels.

[Harley613]

My Dad is a senior driver for the Trillium Line and he's sad he didn't train for the Confederation Line before they closed the Trillium Line so he's stuck on the bus for a few years right around retirement. If anyone has any questions about the Trillium Line I could have him answer them for you. Cool? Guys? Trillium Line thread?

[Brannwagon]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

You can't compare heavy American built locomotives and a light european EMU/DMU. Also you fail to get the point.

The FLIRT are not just your regular Diesel-Electric train. There's vitually no difference between the ones that run fully electric (with overhead catenary) and the ones we're going to have. That is because instead of building a train specificaly for Diesel-Electric motorisation, Stadler chose to build the trains the same way they'd build the EMUp, but instead of having Pantographs to supply current to the motors, a power-pack placed midway between the 4 cars will generate the currant instead.
The day (if it ever happens) that Ottawa decides to Electrify the Trillium Line, they'll only have to remove the power-pack and retrofit the trains with overhead catenary (yes yes the trains are premade a with a slot on the roof just for that).
The Diesel-Electric locos of Go-trains are not only much heavier, they can't be retrofited, they carry enormous tanks of fuel and are much older technology. Not mentionning that they carry 12 double-deck cars that we're made back in the 80s/90s with much heavier material then modern trains.

For your local internet idiot, could you please tell me if that means our FLIRTs will avoid the gear shifting you can hear/feel on our LINTs? Always found that sensation weird for an “urban LRT”

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Harley613

My Dad is a senior driver for the Trillium Line and he's sad he didn't train for the Confederation Line before they closed the Trillium Line so he's stuck on the bus for a few years right around retirement. If anyone has any questions about the Trillium Line I could have him answer them for you. Cool? Guys? Trillium Line thread?

I would love to know if they have enough room in the trench to double track. Dow's Lake tunnel aside. And what's his thought on the current passing track setup?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Harley613

My Dad is a senior driver for the Trillium Line and he's sad he didn't train for the Confederation Line before they closed the Trillium Line so he's stuck on the bus for a few years right around retirement. If anyone has any questions about the Trillium Line I could have him answer them for you. Cool? Guys? Trillium Line thread?

Thanks for offering up your dad's knowledge!

What are his thoughts Talent vs LINT? What, in his opinion, went wrong with the City's estimate of 8 minute frequency prior to the opening of the "upgraded" line in 2014, and did he see it coming?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Brannwagon

For your local internet idiot, could you please tell me if that means our FLIRTs will avoid the gear shifting you can hear/feel on our LINTs? Always found that sensation weird for an “urban LRT”

Idk if there's any gear switching, but here's what it sounds like: https://youtu.be/gRAgvdlWsWI?t=220

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Brannwagon

For your local internet idiot, could you please tell me if that means our FLIRTs will avoid the gear shifting you can hear/feel on our LINTs? Always found that sensation weird for an “urban LRT”

Nope no gear shifting

[waterloowarrior]

Deleted about 30 posts of off topic arguing, please stick to the topic, a couple of posters have received warnings.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Thanks for offering up your dad's knowledge!

What are his thoughts Talent vs LINT? What, in his opinion, went wrong with the City's estimate of 8 minute frequency prior to the opening of the "upgraded" line in 2014, and did he see it coming?

From Dad:

'Both have good and bad points. LINT is smoother and has faster acceleration, but they spin a little easier in the wet/snow.'

'More electronics/faults with LINTS. Talents are just a tough train, they just go, and they have more doors (3 vs 2). Talents were more dependable than LINT were in beginning until the problems were repaired. '


For the 8 minute frequency:

'I knew it wasn't going to make it, saw it coming as soon as they suggested it. they weren't being realistic, there's only the sidings to pass on and it was just unfeasible because they aren't long enough, you have to slow down too much on the sidings to pass. We (the drivers) figured 10 minutes at best then we ended up with 12 minutes. They (the designers) figured the 8 minutes with a computer model, not realistic. Eventually it was the drivers who actually worked out the timing to meet at sidings at the proper time. Also they combined old equipment with new equipment at the beginning which caused a lot of problems with lights and signals.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by Harley613

From Dad:

'Both have good and bad points. LINT is smoother and has faster acceleration, but they spin a little easier in the wet/snow.'

'More electronics/faults with LINTS. Talents are just a tough train, they just go, and they have more doors (3 vs 2). Talents were more dependable than LINT were in beginning until the problems were repaired. '


For the 8 minute frequency:

'I knew it wasn't going to make it, saw it coming as soon as they suggested it. they weren't being realistic, there's only the sidings to pass on and it was just unfeasible because they aren't long enough, you have to slow down too much on the sidings to pass. We (the drivers) figured 10 minutes at best then we ended up with 12 minutes. They (the designers) figured the 8 minutes with a computer model, not realistic. Eventually it was the drivers who actually worked out the timing to meet at sidings at the proper time. Also they combined old equipment with new equipment at the beginning which caused a lot of problems with lights and signals.

That's too bad. Would your father suggest where to add passing tracks to improve headway? Carling and Walkley?

That is cool that your dad was a former driver!