PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by bigfish

I am also firmly against a stadium at penns landing or 8th and market for much of the stated reasons. I would be ok with them building over the tracks at 30th since ALL regional rail lines, 76, and the El and countless bus routes run right there. One thing people haven't really mentioned is the capacity of the BSL vs the El. During pre corona virus times the El was bursting at the seems. Going toward the city in the morning it would be standing room only by the time it got to K&A. The BSL was built to have expresses and have feeder lines like the never built Henry ave and BLVD extensions among others. The El could have no such express trains. The platform at 2nd street would need to majorly redeveloped to handle that type of surge crowd. Just keep all the teams down in South Philly.

I’ve mentioned El capacity on other forums but no one seems to listen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

Another developer responded to the Delaware Riverfront RFP:

https://billypenn.com/2020/09/03/penns-l...-hoffman-washington-wharf-dc-water-taxi/

Now THIS is a competent waterfront proposal.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^ Why is this proposed development all on one giant podium?

[blorkishdork]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post

I’ve mentioned El capacity on other forums but no one seems to listen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All this talk of the El's Capacity, and regardless the El will be seeing an increase in users with SY's and Pennslanding Development; makes me think we really just need another E-W Subway line, whether that is north along Vine St. or along South St. (never going to happen but oh well).

I'm probably in the minority that actually likes the idea of a Downtown stadium. I'm a nova grad and would much rather go to the games downtown then have to schlep down to the stadium complex (nova would probably still play at the WFC if this was built.....).

I always liked the idea of a stadium at Broad and Spring Garden. The northeast corner would work if you take out the BF highschool to the north (that had asbestos problem, right?). Close enough to the Highways and not far from transit. But reality tells me that SY's will be it. Which would still cause El congestion.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

Another developer responded to the Delaware Riverfront RFP:

https://billypenn.com/2020/09/03/penns-l...-hoffman-washington-wharf-dc-water-taxi/

Wow! Cool proposal. I would be interested to see all of them to compare.

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Wow! Cool proposal. I would be interested to see all of them to compare.

That's very cool looking and similar to the Anthem venue in DC. I just wish the buildings could be taller and more vertical (I think there's a 250 ft. building limit here) so it wouldn't totally block the skyline from Camden.

[bigfish]

@Mcgrath I must have missed them but totally agree. @Blork of course the El is going to see an increase no matter what and I am happy for that. The difference is that stadiums create a surge demand before and especially after games. Lets say 50% of sixers fans take the El (not sure if that is a reasonable percentage, others may know better) that is 10,000 people in a very short period of time on a line already stretched. I am not sure another E-W subway would do much good because Center City/ UC is already E-W in terms of density. West Philly is already served well by the trolleys that will be upgraded one day......

The best way to alleviate the coming and existing demands on the El in my opinion are below:

- Get 8 car trains and expand platforms.

- Build the roosevelt BLVD subway. Much of the El's crowds are actually coming from NE Philly. Convert some of that to the BSL which has the capacity to take those riders.

- Make the existing E-W busses such as the 21 and 42 more like a BRT with dedicated bus lanes. Much of Chestnut and Walnut are 2-3 lanes so it can be done easily.

[bigfish]

I love the other proposal. When I first saw it before reading it, it reminded me of DC's wharf.

[iheartphilly]

I say give it to the one that has best design, experience, and know how to make it financially work. Philly has a pretty depressing waterfront and the experience isn't all that great when events do happen down by the waterfront. It needs to be a destination and vibrant part of Philly's culture and social fabric. And, any developer that can revitalize it and make it more lively experience (given their experience and knowledge of what works and doesn't work) should be chosen. Hopefully this comes to fruition in my lifetime because anytime I see plans or ideas that are 10+ years out from reality, I have doubts that they can actually get the project off the ground. And, I may be in FLA retired by then...LOL.

[Jawnadelphia]

Sixers owners, DC-firm Hoffman, Durst Org., do we know who the fourth proposal came from?

[SEFTA]

I'm glad it is not an homogeneous collection of buildings. Each building has it's own character.
A giant pedestal is worrisome.
At least there are opposing proposals to an arena

hoffman-pennslanding-rendering1b

hoffman-pennslanding-rendering3b

Hoffman's proposed development at Penn's Landing, a concert hall and restaurants would sit among towers with residential and commercial space

https://billypenn.com/2020/09/03/penns-l...-hoffman-washington-wharf-dc-water-taxi/

[SEFTA]

Hmmm
This doesn't look like the original rendering

"A rendering of the the biomedical research building Thomas Jefferson University plans to build at 9th and Locust streets."



https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2020/08/31/philadelphia-health-systems-construction-covid-19.html?fbclid=IwAR2Yvpr8t2w0L9LbgzB4pzV5T720jtP7FKPkjCZWCsjdChzbhAmN6pPiqs4

Philadelphia 9th & Locust

[SEFTA]

Oh my
Revised plans for 232 Walnut St have been posted. It's now shorter and brick.
https://www.phila.gov/media/202009031040...JuqAMXyGjBgcggERd8uERSIPcgyzOlw__gKJyfrc

232 Walnut Street

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Oh my
Revised plans for 232 Walnut St have been posted. It's now shorter and brick.
https://www.phila.gov/media/202009031040...JuqAMXyGjBgcggERd8uERSIPcgyzOlw__gKJyfrc

232 Walnut Street

Still a huge improvement over what's there now. I think it does look better in terms of fitting its context, but I have a feeling they're going to still nit pick the arches/floor to ceiling windows.
They'd probably prefer if they used brick horizontally to separate the changes in floor. If only the buildings in the historical photos were still there instead.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Still a huge improvement over what's there now. I think it does look better in terms of fitting its context, but I have a feeling they're going to still nit pick the arches/floor to ceiling windows.
They'd probably prefer if they used brick horizontally to separate the changes in floor. If only the buildings in the historical photos were still there instead.

I agree. But the towers the towers! LOL

[PhilliesPhan]

I know that this has an infinitesimally small chance of happening, but I still think that Broad and Lehigh is a great place for the new Sixers stadium, especially if the plan is to develop a mixed-use neighborhood around the stadium. Imagine the level of life that a new stadium, in conjunction with mixed-use development and the realization of the North Station District Plan, would inject into North Philly. A massive development like that could unite all of the development occurring around Temple and up to around York Street, with the energy that surrounds Broad and Erie.

The current lease is set to expire in 2032. That could be enough time for the Sixers to devise a comprehensive plan with SEPTA and Amtrak to completely revamp both North Philadelphia (Amtrak) and North Broad Stations. Additionally, market conditions may become stabilize and become more favorable for the completion of at least part of the North Station District Plan by that point.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

I agree, that would actually be a good idea. And since they say they're looking to hire Black Philadelphians and PoC, they'd be able to offer a lot of local opportunities for the surrounding community.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I know that this has an infinitesimally small chance of happening, but I still think that Broad and Lehigh is a great place for the new Sixers stadium, especially if the plan is to develop a mixed-use neighborhood around the stadium. Imagine the level of life that a new stadium, in conjunction with mixed-use development and the realization of the North Station District Plan, would inject into North Philly. A massive development like that could unite all of the development occurring around Temple and up to around York Street, with the energy that surrounds Broad and Erie.

The current lease is set to expire in 2032. That could be enough time for the Sixers to devise a comprehensive plan with SEPTA and Amtrak to completely revamp both North Philadelphia (Amtrak) and North Broad Stations. Additionally, market conditions may become stabilize and become more favorable for the completion of at least part of the North Station District Plan by that point.

It won't happen, you see the dude is set on Center City, riverfront area.

However if temple built a giant stadium and really pushed their sports it would be big. Maybe it could be big enough to host all the college sports and etc. it would definitely push growth and new development as well as opportunities for the whole community.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

8th and Market keeps getting floated, but it's not really a good spot for an arena. The problem is the old Gimbels annex (whatever they're calling it nowadays), which would make stand placement at the site awkward.

The way I see it, there are three optimal sites for a CC Sixers arena:

(1) Just south of the Roundhouse. There are exactly four structures on that whole block: (a) the Roundhouse, (b) a WHYY annex at 7th & Cherry, (c) the AAMP, and (d) a loft building at 8th and Cherry. The AAMP is housed in an aging structure and could probably stand being moved somewhere more visible, too. In addition, this site is next to that giant parking garage across 8th between the old Strawbridge's and Lits buildings, and less than a block away from no fewer than three subway stations (8th/Mkt, Chinatown, Franklin Square [should it ever get reopened]), with a direct connection to Market East Jefferson Station via the Gallery FashblahblahDistrict. It's about a block removed from Chinatown residential, too, but there might be some Chinatown horseshit to deal with. In my mind, this is the ideal site for a Center City arena.

(2) Broad and Vine. The block bounded by 13th, Broad, Race, and Vine is mostly parking lots. The downside here, though, is that the buildings facing Broad are all pretty good looking, and there's a Hampton Inn (IIRC?) at 13th and Race, which is pretty successful if unspectacular. It's also conveniently right next to the Race-Vine El stop, and can be connected directly to the Convention Center's Broad Street Atrium for all-weather access to Market East and the 8th and 11th street El stops. Downsides: Apart from (also) having to deal with Chinatown interests, this is also a good site for a Convention Center hotel, not that the two couldn't be mixed in a good proposal, perhaps with the Broad-facing buildings being renovated and overbuilt to achieve the hotel, and the arena occupying the rest of the block. (I bring this up because I worked at the Convention Center for a while, and the place is shockingly underhoteled right now.)

(3) Broad and Washington. Yep, Blatstein just proposed Titanic 2.0 there, probably with an eye towards flipping it the way they flipped the rest of the Schmidt's site to Post Brothers, but this site is probably the only blank block of a size that can fit an arena (8th and Market can't; neither can 15th and Arch; neither can 23rd and JFK) in all of greater Center City, and is just a block away from the Ellsworth-Federal subway station. Wouldn't be an unreasonable chain of events that saw Blatstein flip this baby to Harris, who redesigned it into his dream arena. Downside: local NAs would probably be opposed to the thing. Also it's a solid mile from any expressway, as well as from Regional Rail.

Honorable Mention: 30th Street Station: Space for days, but ... dealing with Amtrak? Really?

Beating a dead horse but I have been playing with these ideas. Having some fun. I've been using an existing model of Miami's AA Arena as a template for scale. It doesn't really fit at Broad and Vine but...

"Franklin Square Arena" was an old idea of mine. It will take over the Round House too
Franklin Square Arena

Washington Street Arena. Massively overwhelming
Washington Boulevard Arena

Callowhill Arena, built above ramps. tricky but not too. I kind of like it. I think the people in the Alexander will have something to say about this!
Callowhill Arena

Callowhill Arena area

How about "Spring Garden Arena" opening a new regional rail station at Spring Garden Street. Reinstating the Spur Line station at Spring Garden.
Spring Garden Arena

"Pattison Avenue Arena" of course it would be surrounded by new development
Pattison Avenue Arena

They don't appreciate posts like this...
OK I'm done

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by blorkishdork

All this talk of the El's Capacity, and regardless the El will be seeing an increase in users with SY's and Pennslanding Development; makes me think we really just need another E-W Subway line, whether that is north along Vine St. or along South St. (never going to happen but oh well).

I'm probably in the minority that actually likes the idea of a Downtown stadium. I'm a nova grad and would much rather go to the games downtown then have to schlep down to the stadium complex (nova would probably still play at the WFC if this was built.....).

I always liked the idea of a stadium at Broad and Spring Garden. The northeast corner would work if you take out the BF highschool to the north (that had asbestos problem, right?). Close enough to the Highways and not far from transit. But reality tells me that SY's will be it. Which would still cause El congestion.

If we are going to that along with the current DC proposal for the waterfront. I say make the Delaware trolley go from the waterfront Via Spring Garden and terminate at the Museums. Also throw in a trolley connection to city hall too

Though right now Broad and Spring Garden are being filled in with development. Where can a Stadium go?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

^ Why is this proposed development all on one giant podium?

It's most likely that the competent ones will all be. The main street level here is the bus bridge, not Delaware Avenue, and that leaves room for a 2-3 level parking garage under the site that, as long as the edges are properly activated, will be wholly unobtrusive. The setup will not be unlike Cincinnati's Banks district, which is built over a massive parking garage stretching between their football and baseball stadiums.

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I'm glad it is not an homogeneous collection of buildings. Each building has it's own character.
A giant pedestal is worrisome.
At least there are opposing proposals to an arena

hoffman-pennslanding-rendering1b

hoffman-pennslanding-rendering3b

Hoffman's proposed development at Penn's Landing, a concert hall and restaurants would sit among towers with residential and commercial space

https://billypenn.com/2020/09/03/penns-l...-hoffman-washington-wharf-dc-water-taxi/

Of the three proposals we know of, this is, so far, easily the best. PN Hoffman developed DC's Wharf; they know what they're doing. Beyond that, I don't want Durst to get the nod, either -- they've already got a ton of land just up the street that they should really be focusing on first. And of course, Harris' proposal is just plain bad.

I wonder what the fourth proposal is?