PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

Which is why I think he gets his arena in South Philly. I never thought the Spectrum should be torn down and then nothing was built on it's foot print. The Xfinity Live was smaller than originally planned They could easily put another arena down there where the Spectrum stood and build around it. Having a gem of a park on the Delaware didn't save minor league baseball in Camden. I think building where the Spectrum stood...would be better for the team and the fans. I'm not sure Penn's Landing really benefits anyone. They should just sell Josh some land in the Complex and let him have at it....two indoor arenas down there with all the parking and subway connections just seems more practical.

Plus the city has to ok it for Penns Landing and I just don't see it happening.

I don't have any information on most things that happen on this board. But i have info on this and I've been saying for years now and roughly 10 times in the past week, the sixers will build a downtown arena in the next 11 years. Their will to do so is immense and it has been in the works from before Josh Harris even signed the papers to buy the team.

If they can't get an arena built in Center City, i don't know what they'll do, sell the team? Stay at wells fargo? But I do know they absolutely will not build an arena at the sports complex. Regardless of the deal the sixers make with the city, this will still be a major investment for the sixers owners and they have no desire to be one of two arenas in the sports complex fighting for every event that comes through the city with wells fargo.

Understand that basketball is just part of this equation. They believe a downtown arena will do very well in center city beyond basketball and for the majority of the events that go through wells fargo, a center city arena would have a distinct advantage. They have reams of data to support this.

They also have tons of data to support that they are MUCH less beholden to suburban fans for support than the other three major teams here and know that even if they make it harder for them, plenty will still do what it takes to get to the arena. Suburban fans will not be a priority in this thought process. Honestly no fans are a priority in this process. The city isn't a priority in this process. This process is entirely about making the sixers incredibly valuable with the smallest contribution from ownership that they can manage.

Also, while I'm sure that the waterfront arena plan would make them very happy if it came to fruition, this plan is bigger than that. They didn't get to break that story as they hoped, but with the museums and the public school, etc. They actually thought this was kind of a good will proposal. And it was also a strategic opening proposal in terms of providing the most justification for very generous public subsidies. It is first and foremost a starting point in what will likely be a years long push to build an arena in center city.

[KDD]

I still don't get the appeal of a CC arena. It seems to me arenas are put in CBD to revive them, we don't need that. And if you ask New Yorkers, aside from the extreme dire hard sports fans, they would tell you MSG is a waste of some of the best real estate in the world.

Given Harris wants state money, it is absolutely our right, and duty, to call this type of stuff out. Having said that, I don't think an arena on 8th and Market (I know Harris hasn't suggested that, but many here have) is all that interesting. It would be across the street from a Ross... Can't wait for that post game Cinnabon!

If Harris wasn't asking for our money, that would completely change my opinion. But he is asking for money and when every jurisdiction is facing a huge deficit and 10%+ unemployment, he and the Sixers are the last people that need our help. If he wants an arena, buy the land at market value, pay for it all himself along with upgrade to the roads and mass transit to get people to the games. Then we can have a conversation. Harris I think has little leverage, this isn't Sacramento where maybe the league wants the team to move anyway, where is he going to go?

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by KDD

I still don't get the appeal of a CC arena. It seems to me arenas are put in CBD to revive them, we don't need that. And if you ask New Yorkers, aside from the extreme dire hard sports fans, they would tell you MSG is a waste of some of the best real estate in the world.

Given Harris wants state money, it is absolutely our right, and duty, to call this type of stuff out. Having said that, I don't think an arena on 8th and Market (I know Harris hasn't suggested that, but many here have) is all that interesting. It would be across the street from a Ross... Can't wait for that post game Cinnabon!

If Harris wasn't asking for our money, that would completely change my opinion. But he is asking for money and when every jurisdiction is facing a huge deficit and 10%+ unemployment, he and the Sixers are the last people that need our help. If he wants an arena, buy the land at market value, pay for it all himself along with upgrade to the roads and mass transit to get people to the games. Then we can have a conversation. Harris I think has little leverage, this isn't Sacramento where maybe the league wants the team to move anyway, where is he going to go?

He has zero leverage. He absolutely cannot leave the Philadelphia metro or he is costing himself money. So, bound to the Philadelphia metro, he has few options outside of Philadelphia that make sense. He can threaten Camden or a PA suburb and try to hassle Philly over the significant amount we'd lose in wage taxes from all those multimillionaire dollar salaries going elsewhere, but it's an empty threat. As I mentioned, a Philadelphia location, a center city location specifically, is central to their plans in regards to how they will keep the arena booked and profitable when the sixers aren't playing.

So yes, there is no real leverage at all, and all of Philadelphia should be united in denying them even a single cent.

Generally speaking, I don't think it's the worst idea in the world for Philadelphia to have an 18 -19 thousand seat arena in center city. But you'd have to do it right, and I don't really have confidence that Harris and Blitzer would do it right. Building things is not really their thing. They're leaches and they made their fortunes by destroying the hard work of others to make a profit.

I honestly think the best outcome is they're roundly told to get fucked by the entire city and that they'll never get to build anything here and they sell the team. But unfortunately I think the most likely outcome is they lose out on the waterfront deal, they float some other proposals where they pick up the tab on the funding but Philly agrees to pay for transit connections or something like that and we end up with a mediocre center city arena that is fun and useful, but probably would have just been better off being an apartment building or a hotel or whatever.

[SEFTA]

I despise how they are strong arming the city.
I have never been to an NBA game and probably never will.
Move to Scranton for all I care. Arenas do not enhance a city neighborhood.
Especially ones as established as Center City.
One place I WOULD support.
Above the rails north of 30th Street Station
Like MSG. Highway access and transit access.
Room for an enormous surrounding plaza on the waterfront with incredible views.

30th Street Arena

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I despise how they are strong arming the city.
I have never been to an NBA game and probably never will.
Move to Scranton for all I care. Arenas do not enhance a city neighborhood.
Especially ones as established as Center City.
One place I WOULD support.
Above the rails north of 30th Street Station
Like MSG. Highway access and transit access.
Room for an enormous surrounding plaza on the waterfront with incredible views.

In my mind 30th St. Station is the #1 site, big enough to allow just about anything a developer could put together, in a area of town that's upwardly changing, along with available transit. But it might be the most expensive site to build on and the land belongs to Amtrak, so the screwy world of federal politics could become a issue.

I can accept that a new big time arena might not be desired in a neighborhood, but the 4 sites that get talked about here, South Philly, Penn's Landing, 8th & Market and 30th St. can hardy be called traditional neighborhoods.

For the average Joe who goes to a game/concert/circus/ice review having a arena in CC might not be the reason for buying a ticket, but to city planers, they are probably doing back flips over the idea. Their dreams are probably filled with ideas like having both the men's and women's NCAA final 4 B ball finals in the same town at the same time. But of course they aren't the ones to have to figure out how to pay for this idea.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by City Wide

In my mind 30th St. Station is the #1 site, big enough to allow just about anything a developer could put together, in a area of town that's upwardly changing, along with available transit. But it might be the most expensive site to build on and the land belongs to Amtrak, so the screwy world of federal politics could become a issue.

I can accept that a new big time arena might not be desired in a neighborhood, but the 4 sites that get talked about here, South Philly, Penn's Landing, 8th & Market and 30th St. can hardy be called traditional neighborhoods.

For the average Joe who goes to a game/concert/circus/ice review having a arena in CC might not be the reason for buying a ticket, but to city planers, they are probably doing back flips over the idea. Their dreams are probably filled with ideas like having both the men's and women's NCAA final 4 B ball finals in the same town at the same time. But of course they aren't the ones to have to figure out how to pay for this idea.

I have bigger plans for Penn's Landing and 8th & Market. They won't be rebuilding the neighborhoods there but sucking off of them.
This is a money grab and I hate it. But that's just me.
I'm assuming S Philly means pretty much where they are and, it's been said, they don't want to build there. I just don't see any need for moving out of where they are.
Maybe move closer to Pattison Avenue and subway station. Create a neighborhood around the station and the ball park.
There are parks, highways and transit. Otherwise I say, if they want our money, let them invest in an area that has been attempting to move forward for decades. It can be the catalyst for 30 St District, which is what public money is for. I've been watching this shit for decades. Stop giving billionaires money. They rarely do what they say.
Not to pay them to move into an already thriving district.

[hammersklavier]

8th and Market keeps getting floated, but it's not really a good spot for an arena. The problem is the old Gimbels annex (whatever they're calling it nowadays), which would make stand placement at the site awkward.

The way I see it, there are three optimal sites for a CC Sixers arena:

(1) Just south of the Roundhouse. There are exactly four structures on that whole block: (a) the Roundhouse, (b) a WHYY annex at 7th & Cherry, (c) the AAMP, and (d) a loft building at 8th and Cherry. The AAMP is housed in an aging structure and could probably stand being moved somewhere more visible, too. In addition, this site is next to that giant parking garage across 8th between the old Strawbridge's and Lits buildings, and less than a block away from no fewer than three subway stations (8th/Mkt, Chinatown, Franklin Square [should it ever get reopened]), with a direct connection to Market East Jefferson Station via the Gallery FashblahblahDistrict. It's about a block removed from Chinatown residential, too, but there might be some Chinatown horseshit to deal with. In my mind, this is the ideal site for a Center City arena.

(2) Broad and Vine. The block bounded by 13th, Broad, Race, and Vine is mostly parking lots. The downside here, though, is that the buildings facing Broad are all pretty good looking, and there's a Hampton Inn (IIRC?) at 13th and Race, which is pretty successful if unspectacular. It's also conveniently right next to the Race-Vine El stop, and can be connected directly to the Convention Center's Broad Street Atrium for all-weather access to Market East and the 8th and 11th street El stops. Downsides: Apart from (also) having to deal with Chinatown interests, this is also a good site for a Convention Center hotel, not that the two couldn't be mixed in a good proposal, perhaps with the Broad-facing buildings being renovated and overbuilt to achieve the hotel, and the arena occupying the rest of the block. (I bring this up because I worked at the Convention Center for a while, and the place is shockingly underhoteled right now.)

(3) Broad and Washington. Yep, Blatstein just proposed Titanic 2.0 there, probably with an eye towards flipping it the way they flipped the rest of the Schmidt's site to Post Brothers, but this site is probably the only blank block of a size that can fit an arena (8th and Market can't; neither can 15th and Arch; neither can 23rd and JFK) in all of greater Center City, and is just a block away from the Ellsworth-Federal subway station. Wouldn't be an unreasonable chain of events that saw Blatstein flip this baby to Harris, who redesigned it into his dream arena. Downside: local NAs would probably be opposed to the thing. Also it's a solid mile from any expressway, as well as from Regional Rail.

Honorable Mention: 30th Street Station: Space for days, but ... dealing with Amtrak? Really?

[cardeza]

the sixers proposal likely will never happen. They may not even be selected as the top team- we aren't even aware of any of the other proposal details. I don't think its worth all of this complaining when its just a response to an RFP...especially when they have already made it clear they want a huge handout from the city.

[PhillyDreamsReturns]

Maybe the arena will be on top of a large tower! Talk about innovation!

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Sorry that argument is so dumb. There's nothing down there but xfinity live, the atmosphere is awful. If there's a double header, the complex will be a 10 minute uber ride away.

And I would say it's extremely moronic to take an uber to a game, especially with surge pricing. Do you go to games often? Have you ever taken the subway during a big game, been down during a double header (lots of people go down for the experience, even if they don't have tickets) or gone to the stadiums with people who hadn't been to the city before?

Originally Posted by Larry King

Except regional rail doesn't go anywhere near the sports complex. It is a 20 minute walk for the Penns Landing Site, slightly less for Patco when the Franklin Square station opens.

You do understand Suburban is connected to the Broad Street line which takes people directly to the stadiums, right? Is that one extra step more difficult for suburbanites? Well that's one of the downside of living in the burbs rather than the city (though I never had an issue when coming in from Manayunk). One of my favorite examples of the different type of Philly fans was going to the "Mayor's Cup" (Temple vs Nova in football before realignment) and watching the Temple kids walking through the throngs on confused suburban Nova fans at Suburban Station transferring to the Broad Street line to the game.

Originally Posted by PhillyDreamsReturns

Maybe the arena will be on top of a large tower! Talk about innovation!

I think I smell phase 2 of Broad & Washington!

[PhillyDreamsReturns]

BREAKING NEWS: Schuylkill Yards Instagram: "Testing, testing...stay tuned for an exciting unveiling, coming soon!"

[thoughtcriminal]

you know what they should do for a new sixers arena? build it on the site of the vet. they should never have taken down the spectrum, it was great to have a smaller arena that could host minor league hockey as well as other events, still in the sports complex. they should build a smaller arena on the site of the vet and bring back the phantoms.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

(3) Broad and Washington. Yep, Blatstein just proposed Titanic 2.0 there, probably with an eye towards flipping it the way they flipped the rest of the Schmidt's site to Post Brothers, but this site is probably the only blank block of a size that can fit an arena (8th and Market can't; neither can 15th and Arch; neither can 23rd and JFK) in all of greater Center City, and is just a block away from the Ellsworth-Federal subway station. Wouldn't be an unreasonable chain of events that saw Blatstein flip this baby to Harris, who redesigned it into his dream arena. Downside: local NAs would probably be opposed to the thing. Also it's a solid mile from any expressway, as well as from Regional Rail.

That does seem like the most obvious option and I agree that Blatstein would be all too willing to flip it for the right price. People coming in on Regional Rail for games now need to transfer to the subway so it doesn't seem like a big hurdle but obviously, it's not as convenient as being a couple blocks from a RR station.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

(3) Broad and Washington. Yep, Blatstein just proposed Titanic 2.0 there, probably with an eye towards flipping it the way they flipped the rest of the Schmidt's site to Post Brothers, but this site is probably the only blank block of a size that can fit an arena (8th and Market can't; neither can 15th and Arch; neither can 23rd and JFK) in all of greater Center City, and is just a block away from the Ellsworth-Federal subway station. Wouldn't be an unreasonable chain of events that saw Blatstein flip this baby to Harris, who redesigned it into his dream arena. Downside: local NAs would probably be opposed to the thing. Also it's a solid mile from any expressway, as well as from Regional Rail.

FWIW 4-6 weeks ago Blatstein was telling people that his #1 focus was the water park in AC. I don't know if he was BS'ing, just saying that because it was his newest project at the time, or what, but I know he was personally telling people that. My point being, your flipping idea wouldn't surprise me.

[Arch+Eng]

Don't post much anymore but just wanted to stop in to say that I am FIRMLY in the keep all of the sports arenas together camp. Maybe redevelop that area so its more engaging or walker friendly.

Also, bring PPL stadium/ Subaru park up from Chester and plop it into one of those stadium parking lots.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by Arch+Eng

Don't post much anymore but just wanted to stop in to say that I am FIRMLY in the keep all of the sports arenas together camp. Maybe redevelop that area so its more engaging or walker friendly.

Also, bring PPL stadium/ Subaru park up from Chester and plop it into one of those stadium parking lots.

Didn't any of these ballfields/arenas come with the provisions of developing the area or did they just get money handed to them?

[SEFTA]

"FashblahblahDistrict"

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

FWIW 4-6 weeks ago Blatstein was telling people that his #1 focus was the water park in AC. I don't know if he was BS'ing, just saying that because it was his newest project at the time, or what, but I know he was personally telling people that. My point being, your flipping idea wouldn't surprise me.

The architect for the reworked version of Broad and Washington is the same one doing the Post Bros Northern Liberties project. My guess would be that the Post Bros have a deal for that site as well.

[bigfish]

I am also firmly against a stadium at penns landing or 8th and market for much of the stated reasons. I would be ok with them building over the tracks at 30th since ALL regional rail lines, 76, and the El and countless bus routes run right there. One thing people haven't really mentioned is the capacity of the BSL vs the El. During pre corona virus times the El was bursting at the seems. Going toward the city in the morning it would be standing room only by the time it got to K&A. The BSL was built to have expresses and have feeder lines like the never built Henry ave and BLVD extensions among others. The El could have no such express trains. The platform at 2nd street would need to majorly redeveloped to handle that type of surge crowd. Just keep all the teams down in South Philly.

[PHLJD13]

Another developer responded to the Delaware Riverfront RFP:

https://billypenn.com/2020/09/03/penns-l...-hoffman-washington-wharf-dc-water-taxi/