Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It's also situational. I have lived in Sweden for about a minute and so I almost never bake myself into the Swedish "we", but when I'm talking with the fam about COVID (i.e. why we can't see each other) I will fall into the "our government says" or "our policy is" thing. Because it's a life-experience I have only ever had in Sweden. I have never been in a pandemic in Canada.

I guess these are the things that pile up...

You just wait until you have a little Sven Maudit running around!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have had an American speak to me that their tour of eastern Canada went directly from Montreal to Toronto not knowing the significance of Ottawa and how close they were.

Perhaps they didn't have time. Either that or they didn't have a particularly good tour operator.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have had an American speak to me that their tour of eastern Canada went directly from Montreal to Toronto not knowing the significance of Ottawa and how close they were.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps they didn't have time. Either that or they didn't have a particularly good tour operator.

I'm trying to imagine the American equivalent -- if you could have a tour of say, the eastern seaboard that missed DC in this way. Say a visit to NYC, to Philly, to Atlanta, or then down to Florida. I couldn't imagine it'd be all too likely.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The whole born-in-the-USA thing is ridiculous. Nobody seemed to care much that Ted Cruz was born in Canada (Calgary) and that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Oh yeah, it is because they were White and Republican. But Obama and Harris? Born in the USA, sez who?

If someone moved to Canada at a young age, and was a Canadian citizen, I could care less where they were born, or where their parents were born.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The Harris “birthers” (for want of a better term) do not question that she was born in the USA. They base their (mistaken, racist, sexist, stupid, take your pick) view on the fact that her parents were apparently not yet U.S. permanent residents when she was born. Somehow, they imagine that she was not subject to U.S. jurisdiction as a result. It’s specious, but it’s good enough for those of the necessary mindset.

The thing is the media keeps giving air time to these "controversies" making them seem like they matter -- it also trickles down to lots of Americans in the general public who feel insecure (especially immigrant and minority) who see themselves represented in these public figures/candidates, and thus you see a lot more "I'm born in the USA!" defensiveness stateside, and overcompensating for "proving their Americanness" in ways you don't see for Canadians, politicians or your average Joe or Jane.

If they're already eligible for a position, they're eligible period. Give no more air time to naysayers. The original birtherism thing with Obama was similar -- why was this obsession drawn out for so long?

Like MolsonExport just said, we should care less about someone's birth or parent's birth as their station now. It's weird that the US, home of the "American dream" and "proposition nation", "we're exceptional in the way anyone can come here and be an American" narrative still harps on family background.

I find it weirdly "old-world-ish" the way the US (even slightly so) focuses a bit more on ancestry/family background in some walks of life. Having more political dynasties like Bushes, Clintons, Kennedy's etc. while before the Trudeaus and infamously for Ontarians, the Fords, the political dynasty thing seemed not particularly a thing for Canada. Even stuff like legacies in US colleges and universities and alma mater links (rare for Canadians to talk about caring if their mom or dad graduated from the same school). Even things like Americans caring more about descendants of the Civil War (Quebecois of the most separatist persuasion even de-emphasis pure laine now and don't talk about fighting on which side of the Plains of Abraham, and will say identity is about current language/cultural loyalty not ancestry or ancestral loyalty). Also stuff like the split between people who identify with ADOS (American descendants of slavery) who say people like Obama and Harris with more recent immigrant black roots are co-opting the "American black experience". Also something about native American ancestry being 1% or 0.1% like the Elizabeth Warren debate.

Maybe it's just that I've lacked exposure to living full-time in societies that care even more about ancestry/family connections (e.g. Europe, Asia, Africa) but the US strikes me as a wee bit obsessed with "lineage" for lack of a better term. While Canada seems more "individual" and in situations like politics, business, education, academia, public figures seem to be under far less pressure to represent a "group", "bloc", "lineage", "family", "ethnicity", "race", etc. Family backgrounds of public figures aren't held up to a magnifying glass in some way that evokes "family pride" or "family shame" as if we're talking about Confucianist ancient China or something.

Maybe I'm off-base about my thoughts and Canuck identity politics are no less damning than Yanks', but say what you want about Trudeau's cliche " a Canadian is a Canadian" is a more individualist ethos than almost anywhere I can think of.

And yes, I realized a few posts ago, I said alongside Acajack's posts that "US and Canada are less different than people make them to be in terms of user-friendliness to newcomers" etc.

But some of the symbolism and rhetoric (e.g. no examples of "birtherism" ever in Canada because it's not even part of our requirement) does stick out just a bit.

[hipster duck]

Different immigrant communities have these tour buses that ply the Northeastern and Ontario-Quebec circuit. I'm most familiar with the Chinese ones like Safeway tours.

Some of them are hilarious. About 20 years ago my uncle came to visit us and he and his family did Toronto-Boston-NYC-DC-Toronto in 4 days. I think he spent 4 hours in Manhattan, during which he visited Times Square for 1 hour (mostly spending his time at the Disney Store) and the Statue of Liberty. There was an obligatory stop in Hershey, PA to visit the chocolate factory. The bus stopped at Chinese restaurants or Swiss Chalet-type places if they were in the sticks, and they slept in exurban Hampton Inns.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bus trip like that that skips Ottawa.

[softee]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Do you mean not being aware of the city at all prior to the road trip ("I've never heard the name Toronto before, but hey let's check out what it's like") and finding out about it on the fly during an unplanned visit, or having heard of it, just being unaware or shocked it's so big.

There's someone in the city discussions "overlooked cities" topic that says they'd never heard of Toronto at all before they joined this forum, and this is a person who is presumably interested in big cities and skyscrapers.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps they didn't have time. Either that or they didn't have a particularly good tour operator.

A lot of Americans have little or no knowledge of Ottawa. I think this was the case here. When they spoke to me, they realized a missed opportunity on their trip.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by softee

There's someone in the city discussions "overlooked cities" topic that says they'd never heard of Toronto at all before they joined this forum, and this is a person who is presumably interested in big cities and skyscrapers.

That's extremely hard to believe. Especially since he apparently lives in California.

If he was an illiterate shoeshine boy in Bhutan, perhaps...

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Different immigrant communities have these tour buses that ply the Northeastern and Ontario-Quebec circuit. I'm most familiar with the Chinese ones like Safeway tours.

Some of them are hilarious. About 20 years ago my uncle came to visit us and he and his family did Toronto-Boston-NYC-DC-Toronto in 4 days. I think he spent 4 hours in Manhattan, during which he visited Times Square for 1 hour (mostly spending his time at the Disney Store) and the Statue of Liberty. There was an obligatory stop in Hershey, PA to visit the chocolate factory. The bus stopped at Chinese restaurants or Swiss Chalet-type places if they were in the sticks, and they slept in exurban Hampton Inns.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bus trip like that that skips Ottawa.

What are the main general differences for "immigrant communities' tour buses" vs. mainstream tour buses? Is it mostly about the language of the announcers, food and other comforts or are the stops that they stop at very drastically of different interest -- for instance, I could see Times Square, or the Hershey's factory being stuff that is touristy in general. Or do they for e.g. stop at historical ethnic communities for the city in question vs. ones geared towards the general public), for example going to Chinatowns and talking about the historic Chinese communities in each city, if the audience happens to be Chinese, and likewise for a different ethnic community.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

What are the main general differences for "immigrant communities' tour buses" vs. mainstream tour buses? Is it mostly about the language of the announcers, food and other comforts or are the stops that they stop at very drastically of different interest -- for instance, I could see Times Square, or the Hershey's factory being stuff that is touristy in general. Or do they for e.g. stop at historical ethnic communities for the city in question vs. ones geared towards the general public), for example going to Chinatowns and talking about the historic Chinese communities in each city, if the audience happens to be Chinese, and likewise for a different ethnic community.

The Chinese tours are conducted in Mandarin or Cantonese (now mostly Mandarin), and are basically about checking off as many boxes as quickly and cheaply as possible. That and outlet shopping.

They stop at Chinese restaurants because they’re cheap, people get homesick and they can bark at the waiters in Mandarin. I don’t think there’s much introspection going on.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That and outlet shopping.

Is this still as much of a thing in an era of online shopping and the changing retail landscape? Travelling to shop on the way for vacation seemed bigger a generation ago (not sure if immigrant or non-immigrant share of the shoppers over time has anything to do with it, though) even with Canadians going to US malls across the border etc. for products not available or much cheaper "back home".

Though I realize older shoppers might be less affected by the shift to online shopping.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The Chinese tours are conducted in Mandarin or Cantonese (now mostly Mandarin), and are basically about checking off as many boxes as quickly and cheaply as possible. That and outlet shopping.

They stop at Chinese restaurants because they’re cheap, people get homesick and they can bark at the waiters in Mandarin. I don’t think there’s much introspection going on.

This huge (capacity is 600-800) buffet restaurant near my place used to make a killing with bus tours: either Asian seniors or school groups from Quebec or Ontario. It's not too far from the bridges between Gatineau and Ottawa.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=buffe...biw=1536&hl=fr

There is some "Chinese" food among the smorgasborg of choices, though I don't think Monsieur and Madame from Harbin would find anyone who speaks their language here. Even the kids who work there who are of Chinese origin likely don't.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This huge (capacity is 600-800) buffet restaurant near my place used to make a killing with bus tours: either Asian seniors or school groups from Quebec or Ontario. It's not too far from the bridges between Gatineau and Ottawa.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=buffe...biw=1536&hl=fr

There is some "Chinese" food among the smorgasborg of choices, though I don't think Monsieur and Madame from Harbin would find anyone who speaks their language here. Even the kids who work there who are of Chinese origin likely don't.

That looks pretty good actually, at least from the photos. I feel like buffets in general have fallen by the wayside (even before the pandemic) and are less common than they were a generation ago.

But that one looks like it's doing quite well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

That looks pretty good actually, at least from the photos. I feel like buffets in general have fallen by the wayside (even before the pandemic) and are less common than they were a generation ago.

But that one looks like it's doing quite well.

It's not (or wasn't) that great, though I didn't mind it. Some of my family members like it, some hate it.

They have rejigged things so I do not think it is a buffet anymore.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

school groups from Quebec or Ontario.

Come to think about it growing up in the GTA at least until the 90s and into the 2000s, school field trips, events etc. often did involve a buffet as the meal stop in many places. I'd almost forgotten about this, because after high school, it seems non-student, non-senior social gatherings of all-adults, especially-co-workers, are more likely to take place in more "formal" restaurants.

I don't know if it's a thing just as popular currently (or before the pandemic) but it makes sense. Big group of kids. Pretty affordable, don't have to worry about planning diets/picky eaters and all that.

I wouldn't be surprised if mass group outings like those are still a major source of income for buffets, assuming return to normalcy, and they can still survive with low profit margins (probably not as common in expensive cities these days though vs. suburbs, smaller towns). But maybe not and they are on the decline which will be hastened more by the pandemic.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's extremely hard to believe. Especially since he apparently lives in California.

If he was an illiterate shoeshine boy in Bhutan, perhaps...

Far more common is foreigners assuming that Toronto is the national capital.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The whole born-in-the-USA thing is ridiculous. Nobody seemed to care much that Ted Cruz was born in Canada (Calgary) and that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Oh yeah, it is because they were White and Republican. But Obama and Harris? Born in the USA, sez who?

If someone moved to Canada at a young age, and was a Canadian citizen, I could care less where they were born, or where their parents were born.

That rule is obviously a relic of the 1700s mindset. Same as their inalienable right for every single citizen to personally bear [flintlock muskets/tactical nukes].

When you let centuries pass without updating these things, you start to occasionally see suboptimal, avoidable outcomes. It is not a good idea to let centuries pass without revisiting rules/regulations from time to time.

If the best person for the job happens to not be natural-born (which is bound to happen on occasion), disqualifying them on that sole basis is unarguably bad/idiotic, and will produce inferior results.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

That rule is obviously a relic of the 1700s mindset. Same as their inalienable right for every single citizen to personally bear [flintlock muskets/tactical nukes].

When you let centuries pass without updating these things, you start to occasionally see suboptimal, avoidable outcomes. It is not a good idea to let centuries pass without revisiting rules/regulations from time to time.

If the best person for the job happens to not be natural-born (which is bound to happen on occasion), disqualifying them on that sole basis is unarguably bad/idiotic, and will produce inferior results.

It is not unusual for countries to restrict eligibility for the head of state to native-born citizens, is it? In the case of the USA, it has been revisited umpteen times over the years, in the courts and in public discourse.

[saffronleaf]

Quebec feels the most foreign / different to me. So I'd say cities in Quebec feel the least Canadian to me. But you could just as easily make the argument that cities in Quebec are the most Canadian.

[Loco101]

I really don't know how places in Canada can be more or less Canadian? I live in a place where most people don't talk about being Canadian. Nobody has ever said that Timmins is very un-Canadian and visitors often remark that it's quite representative of Canada here in many ways.