Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by benp

Just comparing built environment, how about a couple of blocks down from your example, same street:
https://goo.gl/maps/7cVhrdN6XtErp6mB8

Now Hamilton:
https://goo.gl/maps/69VURpgX1MtJa9Vi8

There is a lot of similarity among Great Lakes cities, on both sides of the border. This is just one example.

If you are strictly referring to some population loss aspects between the US and Canada, that's different. But FYI the street view of the area you provided is now 9 years old, and it has seen quite a bit of gentrification since that time.

Keep going down the street in those links and the standard typologies come into play providing evidence of how distinctive they are from each other. The feel is just totally different, not least due to how dominant brick is in southern Ontario, by contrast with how much wood siding there is in Western NY (and indeed the northeast and midwest US as a whole).

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

My intuition seems to be more cross-movent between GTA and the east coast than the midwest in both directions (though what part of that is the midwest being more "insular" outside the border areas, vs. the eastern seaboard being more "cosmopolitan" and other factors like the east coast being the center of finance/media/power stateside, though California is no slouch).

Immigration patterns are a big part of the connection. When one branch of a family from country x moves to New Jersey and another to Mississauga, you wind up with much more cross-border traffic than you'd find with closer-by parts of the US where fewer family connections exist. These connections often exist to California as well, but it would be far more common for visiting family members to fly (for obvious reasons).

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Immigration patterns are a big part of the connection. When one branch of a family from country x moves to New Jersey and another to Mississauga, you wind up with much more cross-border traffic than you'd find with closer-by parts of the US where fewer family connections exist. These connections often exist to California as well, but it would be far more common for visiting family members to fly (for obvious reasons).

Was it different even a couple of generations ago? I got the impression that Ontario had people with more cross-border family or immigration connections in the Midwestern region earlier throughout in the 20th century, and further back, when most immigrants were sourced from Europe (e.g. Joe Shuster, the co-creator of Superman who immigrated with family to Toronto, and then to Cleveland in the 1920s). Wasn't there an era when Toronto was far more tied to Rochester, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago etc. than to New York, LA, etc.? Maybe this is true of other Canadian regions too -- e.g. was Vancouver more tied to Seattle back in the day, for instance when Jimi Hendrix moved between those cities?

Did this change happen with the economic decline of the Midwest, the rise of regular plane-based immigration, or something else -- I'm wondering if we can pinpoint the time it changed.

For the Mexican border (because much of the immigration is associated with land), US-city and Mexican-city ties are still strong cross-border, but less so with Canada. Now Canada's immigration ties are now big cities tied to big cities, without regard to distance like you say.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Was it different even a couple of generations ago? I got the impression that Ontario had people with more cross-border family or immigration connections in the Midwestern region earlier throughout in the 20th century, and further back, when most immigrants were sourced from Europe (e.g. Joe Shuster, the co-creator of Superman who immigrated with family to Toronto, and then to Cleveland in the 1920s). Wasn't there an era when Toronto was far more tied to Rochester, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago etc. than to New York, LA, etc.? Maybe this is true of other Canadian regions too -- e.g. was Vancouver more tied to Seattle back in the day, for instance when Jimi Hendrix moved between those cities?

Did this change happen with the economic decline of the Midwest, the rise of regular plane-based immigration, or something else -- I'm wondering if we can pinpoint the time it changed.

For the Mexican border (because much of the immigration is associated with land), US-city and Mexican-city ties are still strong cross-border, but less so with Canada. Now Canada's immigration ties are now big cities tied to big cities, without regard to distance like you say.

There are quite a few Lebanese, African (many countries) and Haitian families on my street. In the summer it's common to see plates from New York, New Jersey, Florida and even California. These are visiting family members.

The people I am closest to in these communities (either on my street or elsewhere) almost all have relatives in the U.S. somewhere.

And my kids have friends from these communities who occasionally go and visit their cousins in LA, Silicon Valley, Tampa or Fort Lee, New Jersey.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is the percentage of Canadian LIs who subsequently emigrate to the USA very high? It’s not something that gets much attention, istm.

Don't know about stats, but I feel like this was talked about more in the 90s and even 2000s. The brain drain discourse talked not only about Canadian citizens moving stateside but also those temporary "bright" immigrants who unfortunately used Canada (work experience, education etc.) as stepping stone to the US as bigger more lucrative economic destination.

Now the narrative has shifted a bit with the reverse under the Trump years but even somewhat before in the 2010s (would-be immigrants under things like H-1B visas who can't stay long term due to more restrictive immigration policies heading north of the border). But you still get the lingering impression, though increasingly less commonly, that Canada is the "second choice" that immigrants settle for when they're not high caliber enough to make it big in the "American dream".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is the percentage of Canadian LIs who subsequently emigrate to the USA very high? It’s not something that gets much attention, istm.

I've heard numbers in the 20-25% range for immigrants to Canada who eventually move to the U.S. within about a decade.

I don't have a link that proves it right now but I've seen it several times from different sources over the years.

I suspect that it probably ebbs and flows depending on the economic and political climate in the U.S. (relative to Canada).

You are correct that it does not get much attention.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's also one of the few states with a declining population over the past decade, down -3.3% in the past ten years.



Probably a lack of interest in cities as a whole. As you've said, WV is a very uncosmopolitan, and for a few at least that's probably a choice made.

Some may not even know much about Toronto at all, or at least not have a good idea of how big it really is.

I think that things have gotten better with the Internet and also Toronto's visibility in the U.S. has gone up a few notches, but there are stories that aren't urban legends of Americans crossing the border, driving into Toronto and exclaiming: "Holy shit! There's a humongous city here! How come I never knew this?".

(This also happens to some degree with other Canadian cities like Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City.)

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are quite a few Lebanese, African (many countries) and Haitian families on my street. In the summer it's common to see plates from New York, New Jersey, Florida and even California. These are visiting family members.

The people I am closest to in these communities (either on my street or elsewhere) almost all have relatives in the U.S. somewhere.

And my kids have friends from these communities who occasionally go and visit their cousins in LA, Silicon Valley, Tampa or Fort Lee, New Jersey.

I've wondered if cross-border ties are stronger for those of more recent immigrant ties or those with older, multigenerational family histories in Canada.

You could argue both ways.

Newer families in Canada are perhaps less likely to stick to one side of the border as a family block than past immigrants, but have members in all of the lucrative economic destinations all across the continent, especially when distance/social connections are less of a barrier than in the past.

On the other hand Canadians with many generations in Canada are more likely to perhaps see "the US and Canada" as North America, and share North American culture. So they may see either country as similar enough to move back and forth for jobs etc. Also, I get the impression, no stats but ancedotes, that people who have a foot in both countries as "snowbirds" or own homes stateside in places like Florida, Texas are not necessarily particularly associated with having family that are new immigrants but are more likely "old stock Canadians".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Also does it really matter if a person/family/group/community wanted to become part of a nation/region/province/city at the start or never did intend to stay, if eventually they do settle down and put down roots etc.

After all, plenty of people who never wanted to become *insert part of group/nation/place* eventually did and now see themselves as undeniable participants in their own societies, ranging from conquered people like Native Americans/First Nations becoming part of or at least living within the nation of the colonizers, conquered Francophones not wanting to become part of the same nation as English-speaking Brits prior to Canada's founding, African Americans' ancestors never wanting to go to a distant land against their will, even some refugees who longed to go back to their home country but never returned so eventually put down roots in the new country with their kids having never known the "old country", or well, even some rich expat who wanted to return home but found true love and married some local so now they have kids here. Some would probably not see all these disparate scenarios as appropriate analogies but they all have something in common which is even if the original intent was never to stay/belong in a place, now they do and once they belong, they have equal claim to belonging as those who voluntarily came and intended it to be their final destination/goal all along.

I have known quite a few people in my life for whom Canada was a second or third choice (behind the U.S. and Australia), and Canada simply said "yes" first.

The vast majority do not regret settling in Canada at all, and many even say it was the better option of the three, all things considered.

I often say humans are like plants. No matter where you set them down, roots inevitably will start growing into the ground.

Having kids and everything that goes along with that also makes a huge difference. For myself and my wife especially it was the final kicker in terms of feeling Québécois.

I have also noticed among Canadian friends and acquaintances who moved to the U.S. that when they had kids is when they started talking more and more about "Americans" as being an "us" that included them. Before that they were simply Canadians living (long-term) in the U.S., and "Americans" was a group they weren't a part of.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Some may not even know much about Toronto at all, or at least not have a good idea of how big it really is.

I think that things have gotten better with the Internet and also Toronto's visibility in the U.S. has gone up a few notches, but there are stories that aren't urban legends of Americans crossing the border, driving into Toronto and exclaiming: "Holy shit! There's a humongous city here! How come I never knew this?".

(This also happens to some degree with other Canadian cities like Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City.)

Do you mean not being aware of the city at all prior to the road trip ("I've never heard the name Toronto before, but hey let's check out what it's like") and finding out about it on the fly during an unplanned visit, or having heard of it, just being unaware or shocked it's so big.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Do you mean not being aware of the city at all prior to the road trip ("I've never heard the name Toronto before, but hey let's check out what it's like") and finding out about it on the fly during an unplanned visit, or having heard of it, just being unaware or shocked it's so big.

Oh I am sure people have heard the name(s) at least vaguely especially if they're travelling in the vicinity. Mostly it's a shock at how big these places are.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have also noticed among Canadian friends and acquaintances who moved to the U.S. that when they had kids is when they started talking more and more about "Americans" as being an "us" that included them. Before that they were simply Canadians living (long-term) in the U.S., and "Americans" was a group they weren't a part of.

I guess it's partly because if you have kids (presumably born or raised there), it would be odd to talk about your kids as part as the "them" in a way you aren't. I don't know how awkward it is to say "I'm Canadian, but my kids are American" or "my mom/dad are Canadians, but I'm American". I know you mentioned Canada is among the most user-friendly countries to become "one of us" but these examples show the US isn't too dissimilar or far behind for all the rhetoric otherwise.

But then again, you get this all the time with kids of immigrants in other contexts (e.g. a Mexican-American referring to their first-gen. immigrant but already-naturalized dad as still "Mexican" but they as American, or Chinese immigrants who call their kids Canadian but are hesitant to use the label "Canadian" for themselves because they themselves don't perceive themselves as assimilated as their kids, citizenship or not).

Though a counterpoint would be all those videos when an adult immigrant to Canada (there are quite a few posted online) who despite often audibly having a foreign accent, responds to a xenophobic taunt or rant by insisting that they're Canadian too.

That's curiously one thing I've seen less of stateside. I'm struck that immigrants to (Anglo) Canada will defend their new found sense of Canadian-ness even if someone can hear that for instance, they have a slight Chinese or Arabic accent, while Americans who defend their American-ness tend to be those with an American accent. Maybe it's similar too with even Francophones as you mentioned Haitians identifying quickly with Quebecois upon immigrating. American citizens who naturalized but still show signs of a foreign accent may defend their honour in other ways against racist/xenophobic attacks (e.g. yelling back against their harasser for these racial slights) but don't take up the mantle of "American-ness" in a "Canadian is a Canadian" Trudeau-esque way as much. After all the "I'm born here! I'm just as American as you" is a clincher for arguments about belonging stateside due to sharper views about what it means to be American, but that means naturalized Americans seem to shy away from claiming Americanness if they weren't naturally born citizens the way naturalized Canadians don't seem to put focus on (we, for instance don't have the equivalency of their rule for presidency to born citizens only, and thus "birtherism" doesn't play into things as much, not to say Canadians don't still see the natural-born as more "Canadian" just less so of a difference than other countries maybe?).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I guess it's partly because if you have kids (presumably born or raised there), it would be odd to talk about your kids as part as the "them" in a way you aren't. I don't know how awkward it is to say "I'm Canadian, but my kids are American" or "my mom/dad are Canadians, but I'm American". I know you mentioned Canada is among the most user-friendly countries to become "one of us" but these examples show the US isn't too dissimilar or far behind for all the rhetoric otherwise.

I have been saying this for a long time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

(we, for instance don't have the equivalency of their rule for presidency to born citizens only,).

You just did it! You've lived in the U.S. for a while and just used Canadians as the "we" and Americans as the "them".

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You just did it! You've lived in the U.S. for a while and just used Canadians as the "we" and Americans as the "them".

Haha! That example might have been particularly salient ("we don't have a rule about our leader being born here, unlike them"...) because the US election is coming up in a few months!

And since I can't vote in it while residing stateside (not a US citizen, have not naturalized), might as well remind people about my Canadian-ness (especially Americans who ask me about if I'll be voting!). Thinking about it, given so much lack of cultural, cuisine, dress differences between the two countries, political differences then become a major talking point.

[MolsonExport]

The whole born-in-the-USA thing is ridiculous. Nobody seemed to care much that Ted Cruz was born in Canada (Calgary) and that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Oh yeah, it is because they were White and Republican. But Obama and Harris? Born in the USA, sez who?

If someone moved to Canada at a young age, and was a Canadian citizen, I could care less where they were born, or where their parents were born.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The whole born-in-the-USA thing is ridiculous. Nobody seemed to care much that Ted Cruz was born in Canada (Calgary) and that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Oh yeah, it is because they were White and Republican. But Obama and Harris? Born in the USA, sez who?

The Ted Cruz Canada thing was brought up many times by Donald Trump during the campaign. It's debatable how much people cared about it but then again Obama was elected.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The whole born-in-the-USA thing is ridiculous. Nobody seemed to care much that Ted Cruz was born in Canada (Calgary) and that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Oh yeah, it is because they were White and Republican. But Obama and Harris? Born in the USA, sez who?

If someone moved to Canada at a young age, and was a Canadian citizen, I could care less where they were born, or where their parents were born.

The Harris “birthers” (for want of a better term) do not question that she was born in the USA. They base their (mistaken, racist, sexist, stupid, take your pick) view on the fact that her parents were apparently not yet U.S. permanent residents when she was born. Somehow, they imagine that she was not subject to U.S. jurisdiction as a result. It’s specious, but it’s good enough for those of the necessary mindset.

[kool maudit]

It's also situational. I have lived in Sweden for about a minute and so I almost never bake myself into the Swedish "we", but when I'm talking with the fam about COVID (i.e. why we can't see each other) I will fall into the "our government says" or "our policy is" thing. Because it's a life-experience I have only ever had in Sweden. I have never been in a pandemic in Canada.

I guess these are the things that pile up...

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Do you mean not being aware of the city at all prior to the road trip ("I've never heard the name Toronto before, but hey let's check out what it's like") and finding out about it on the fly during an unplanned visit, or having heard of it, just being unaware or shocked it's so big.

I have had an American speak to me that their tour of eastern Canada went directly from Montreal to Toronto not knowing the significance of Ottawa and how close they were.