The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So, in other words, you agree with Harls that she is being a — disturber (but you're just more diplomatic).

A job's a job. If they asked me to coach the Montreal Canadiens for 500k a year, even if I am not qualified I'd think twice about turning it down!

She didn't create that job all by herself nor did she (I assume) promote herself to the position.

All of which to say I am most befuddled by the organization's decision to hire someone who wasn't bilingual.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All of which to say I am most befuddled by the organization's decision to hire someone who wasn't bilingual.

And, to go back to the beginning of the discussion, the reason why the nearly unilingually French speaking president of the SAANB was being interviewed on the CBC Moncton radio station was because a unilingual English speaking security guard had been hired for the Alcool N-B store in Caraquet of all places !!!

The local burghers understandably expressed some umbrage over this faux pas.

I don't know what ANBL was thinking when they did this (although I suppose security services may be contracted out). In any event, it was a stupid thing to do.............

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A job's a job. If they asked me to coach the Montreal Canadiens for 500k a year, even if I am not qualified I'd think twice about turning it down!

She didn't create that job all by herself nor did she (I assume) promote herself to the position.

All of which to say I am most befuddled by the organization's decision to hire someone who wasn't bilingual.

How do you know she's not bilingual?

[begratto]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

A friend of mine is of Polynesian ancestry but was adopted as an infant by a Swedish family. He speaks fluent Swedish, is conversant with all Swedish cultural norms and references, and has lived his entire life in Sweden. To my eyes, he must be considered a sort of Swede. What else could he be? He has no connection to, or solid knowledge of, his ancestors and their land.

Replace "Swedish" by "Québécois", and your friend wouldn't be considered "a sort of Québécois". He'd be considered 100% Québécois by everyone. I know as I happen to have many examples in my family.

Two of my aunts are Chinese : 4 of my cousins are Québécois/Chinese. On top of this, 4 members of my extended family were adopted in Asia. All of them considered themselves Québécois, and to my knowledge everyone around them (friends, schoolmates, colleagues etc) has always considered them to be Québécois as well. Not as in "sort of" ; 100%.

[kool maudit]

I didn't mean "sort of" as in "this coffee is sort of hot", but as in "coffee is a sort of beverage".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

How do you know she's not bilingual?

It could be that she is.

Though again, I re-iterate that speaking to a francophone media outlet and its audience of thousands in English only (if she is bilingual and we assume it would be just "to make a point") is a very odd way to make a positive contribution.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I didn't mean "sort of" as in "this coffee is sort of hot", but as in "coffee is a sort of beverage".

I understand the difference, but I'd go as far to say that they're not a "sort of Québecois". They're Québécois.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And, to go back to the beginning of the discussion, the reason why the nearly unilingually French speaking president of the SAANB was being interviewed on the CBC Moncton radio station was because a unilingual English speaking security guard had been hired for the Alcool N-B store in Caraquet of all places !!!

The local burghers understandably expressed some umbrage over this faux pas.

I don't know what ANBL was thinking when they did this (although I suppose security services may be contracted out). In any event, it was a stupid thing to do.............

He was also in the francophone media talking about this and also about death threats and other hate messages he's been flooded with lately. Someone said they'd stick a union jack up his —!

As for the issue in Caraquet, I'd heard of that too. The security was contracted out by ANBL so they are only indirectly responsible. And reacted quickly AFAIK.

Ironically, I am (or at least was) familiar with that security company. They should have known better!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

At least as far as the Bloc is concerned, you would be Quebecois.

From A "Québécois Nation"? Harper Fuels an Important Debate:

The confusion may or may not have been fortuitous.

There has actually as much if not more resistance of "Québécois" as a civic (quasi-citizenship) non-ethnic identity among the Canadian ruling classes than among the Québécois élites themselves.

If we think about political strategizing I suppose we can understand why some outside Quebec would want "Québécois" to refer to French Canadians only.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If we think about political strategizing I suppose we can understand why some outside Quebec would want "Québécois" to refer to French Canadians only.

And conversely why the Québécois elite would profess to a broader civic identity.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by begratto

I understand the difference, but I'd go as far to say that they're not a "sort of Québecois". They're Québécois.

That's fine, and most Swedes would say the same. But even if we choose to regard ethnicity and phenotype as meaningless with regard to group identity, as is the fashion, the indigenous peoples of the world vary according to their environments and adaptations.

I would have a hard time seeing a version of myself, adopted away at birth, as an Igbo. I would think there would be an asterisk in my mind and the mind of others, even if I was a beloved and fully-fledged member of my community in Nigeria.

Although the contemporary perspective is to see this as bad in the sense that it seems to "block" full membership based on arbitrary and meaningless phenotype variations, there is an older sense in which ignoring it would be almost a kind of slight against my ancestors. That's why I used the phrase "realm of ancestors"... a lot of historical periods were much less concerned with individual identity security than we are, and more with the chain of being.



Edit: To get this in line with the trend of the discussion, though, Sweden has followed the civic path, as seems appropriate to our mobile world. But it is not so long since it was a near-ethnostate, like many European countries.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That's fine, and most Swedes would say the same. But even if we choose to regard ethnicity and phenotype as meaningless with regard to group identity, as is the fashion, the indigenous peoples of the world vary according to their environments and adaptations.

I would have a hard time seeing a version of myself, adopted away at birth, as an Igbo. I would think there would be an asterisk in my mind and the mind of others, even if I was a beloved and fully-fledged member of my community in Nigeria.

Although the contemporary perspective is to see this as bad in the sense that it seems to "block" full membership based on arbitrary and meaningless phenotype variations, there is an older sense in which ignoring it would be almost a kind of slight against my ancestors. That's why I used the phrase "realm of ancestors"... a lot of historical periods were much less concerned with individual identity security than we are, and more with the chain of being.



Edit: To get this in line with the trend of the discussion, though, Sweden has followed the civic path, as seems appropriate to our mobile world. But it is not so long since it was a near-ethnostate, like many European countries.

And of course, many African-Americans, likely with no more prior knowledge of Igbo ways and culture than you, would fit in much more easily as part of the Igbo people.

Even by the next generation, with an Igbo first and last name, no one who isn't closely clued in would know the kids are actually of recent American origin.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

And conversely why the Québécois elite would profess to a broader civic identity.

Most certainly. Which of these motivations is the more or less virtuous one is, of course, debatable.

[kwoldtimer]

Casual, systemic, overt. Take your pick.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transport-canada-investigation-racist-email-findings-1.5666035

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/western-university-kings-college-racism-1.5664828

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sailor-reinstated-navy-protest-1.5666024

[JHikka]

The Navy story is pretty crazy. Remarkable how tone-deaf some of these organizations can be when the microscope is firmly on them in a time like this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Casual, systemic, overt. Take your pick.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transport-canada-investigation-racist-email-findings-1.5666035

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/western-university-kings-college-racism-1.5664828

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sailor-reinstated-navy-protest-1.5666024

How about "worthy of investigation and, ultimately, sanctions and measures of redress"?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

Such courage? Whatever. — disturber is more like it.

Following kwoldtimer's example, if I happen to live in a jurisdiction that doesn't mandate emissions testing for my truck's vehicle category, and I "choose" to roll coal with it, "as is my right", you will salute my "courage" in knowingly exposing myself to stark online disapprobation from MolsonEx, O-tacular, etc.?

Pretty sure that one is actually an Ontario license plate, it could be your neighbor

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I consider myself every bit as much a Quebecker as a Lio or as an Acajack, but the question is whether the feeling is mutual.

I gave this some thought using my gf's family as food for it, they've been in Quebec for many generations and some of them speak decent French but others don't; they're clearly (Anglo-)Quebeckers, no doubt, and they also clearly aren't "French Canadians", nor were any of their ancestors "Canadiens", back when that term meant what it meant (back then, my gf's family were "Brits", living in Canada).

So, yeah, you're definitely a Quebecker.
But I don't think you're a French Canadian. (Knowing a bit about your family's roots, and the fact you currently live in English, in Ontario; interestingly, your Lévis uncle would probably qualify. )

Now, if by "Québécois" we mean the latter (well, the latter plus the obvious extra requirement of being from Quebec; a Franco-Manitoban wouldn't qualify), then you're not that.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. People are what they are.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

The tendency is to focus on the more porous ways of looking at this, as they signify a welcoming nature and a certain broad-mindedness. They are perhaps the only ones on which policy can be built given the current philosophy. But they are not all that exists.

As noted, I live in Sweden but am not Swedish. I could conceivably be Swedish by way of appearance, but I am a foreign non-citizen resident who speaks the language with a heavy, halting accent. I plan to fix this and to eventually apply for citizenship, but even if I do this, I will see myself as a Canadian in Sweden who has made the necessary adaptations.

A friend of mine is of Polynesian ancestry but was adopted as an infant by a Swedish family. He speaks fluent Swedish, is conversant with all Swedish cultural norms and references, and has lived his entire life in Sweden. To my eyes, he must be considered a sort of Swede. What else could he be? He has no connection to, or solid knowledge of, his ancestors and their land.

But...

But.

Karl Svensson from Sundsvall, son of Magnus and Ebba, a visible Viking whose grandmother taught him what to leave out for the trolls so they wouldn't act up... he is something, he has a category, no? He is Swedish in a profound way. He is racially, ethnically Swedish.

I can understand that no contemporary Western nation wishes to recognize whatever difference exists between Karl and my friend, nor do we personally. Many would even be reluctant to outline the difference between Karl and me! It seems dangerous on the large scale and churlish on the small. The trend is to ignore it, and even to talk off-handedly about some future global métissage if it is brought up. But Karl really is Swedish in the most absolute way*, just as Nataana is Maasai in this way and Daryoosh is Persian.

While there is a very good chance that Karl's lineage all originates in Sweden for as far as anyone can see, there can be more "métissage" across European nations than we non-Europeans (or even Europeans themselves) realize or acknowledge.

Generally speaking European cultures were historically quite systematic about changing surnames to make them "fit", although this has been a bit less the case as the 20th century wore on (especially in France). So you have lots of family trees where all of the names appear Swedish or German or whatever, but there could easily be Russian or Polish ancestors mixed in there.

I have a western European person (came to Canada as an adult) who married into my family and who is in every way shape and form typical of the old stock nationality of their country of origin. And yet the surname they bear is quite clearly an adaptation of an eastern European name and this person confirms that the family's ancestry is indeed eastern European. Sort of like how an Italian named Tedesco suggests distant German origins, or how you have Québécois names like Langlois (Langlais) or Litalien.

While there are physical characteristics common to Europeans that make a lot of these transitions easier and quicker, it could just be that your Polynesian friend is at the earliest "pioneer" phase of the process, and that over successive generations of inter-marriage with mostly European origin Swedes, their traits that stand out today will become more and more subtle. Eventually leading to these people also becoming virtually indistinguishable from other Swedes (whatever it is they tend to look like at that point).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

KW is actually correct in pointing out that she is exercising her freedoms, but the real question is whether she is being productive or constructive in doing so?

I like my example above. Incidentally, the older Ford 7.3 diesel that's in my driveway as I type this (from home!) would be a great platform for "exercising my freedom" of rolling coal.

And I'm thick-skinned (kwoldtimer would say "courageous") enough that I'd be fine even knowing some people out there would consider me an antisocial —