The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by begratto

You don't have to assimilate to it, but you have to aknowledge that it's there, and make a effort (even small) to participate to it.



������ this. Exactly.

Well of course. I and my two brothers learned French, as did my mother at a much later age. One of my father's great regrets is not learning French. Personally I have no time for those people who intend on living in Quebec without making an effort to learn the language of the majority...are there many of this sort left (i.e., the famous English-speaking saleslady at Eaton's dept store)?

I consider myself every bit as much a Quebecker as a Lio or as an Acajack, but the question is whether the feeling is mutual.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Well of course. I and my two brothers learned French, as did my mother at a much later age. One of my father's great regrets is not learning French. Personally I have no time for those people who intend on living in Quebec without making an effort to learn the language of the majority...are there many of this sort left (i.e., the famous English-speaking saleslady at Eaton's dept store)?

I consider myself every bit as much a Quebecker as a Lio or as an Acajack, but the question is whether the feeling is mutual.

If you choose to live your life in English in Quebec, as is your right, what does it matter what language the majority speaks? It certainly doesn't make you a "sort", although it does imply certain sacrifices.
Personally, I'd like to meet the woman referenced by Acajack a few posts back, who spoke in English to the French language media - such courage in the defence of freedom is admirable.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's actually fairly simple, at least to a rough approximation.

1) There are the physical characteristics or filial relationships you are born with and basically can't change (today we talk about genetics, in the past it was who your parents are).
2) There are cultural characteristics you can pick up (although it may be difficult, or sometimes easy by design as with a lot of religions).

The in-group out-group dynamic is sometimes rooted in (1) and sometimes in (2). In Western countries we are seeing a shift from (1) to (2), which is almost complete now. In some backward rural areas in NA you still find (1) although it lives on more in fiction than reality now in Canada.

(1) is more associated with racism than (2).

This seems to be getting at the pull between civic and ethnic nationalism. I'm not particularly well-versed in political theory, but the French would typically be considered the example of civic identity rooted in shared values, philosophy, and language. There isn't really a French ethnicity.

I'm honestly not sure how much of a shift there actually is away from ethnic national identities where those are actually a thing (Scandinavian countries are actually one of the instances that are clear examples of this, in my opinion).

I have a friend who posted recently about this, somewhat disparingly in the context of Danish/Greenlandic identity. Their mother was Greenlandic and father Danish. They only speak Danish, grew up in Greenland and inherited a mix of traits from both sides of the family such that they don't really pass as either Greenlandic or Danish. They grew up in Greenland, continue to live in Greenland and fully participate in the local culture (where Danish is far and away the most commonly used language), but would never be considered Greenlandic (nor would they really see themselves as Greenlandic, I think). At the same time, no one would consider them Danish either there in Greenland or in Denmark.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Personally, I'd like to meet the woman referenced by Acajack a few posts back, who spoke in English to the French language media - such courage in the defence of freedom is admirable.

I'd like to hear Acajack's opinion of this perspective.

In my opinion, there are still a few anglophone pockets in Quebec, like in the Pontiac region, and since the anglophone villages in these pockets have been around for a couple of hundred years, I think it would be generous of the provincial government to allow them to keep their culture rather than periodically sending in the Surete de Langue with their measuring tape to assess the size of the English lettering on their signs............

I'll be leaving now........

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Well of course. I and my two brothers learned French, as did my mother at a much later age. One of my father's great regrets is not learning French. Personally I have no time for those people who intend on living in Quebec without making an effort to learn the language of the majority...are there many of this sort left (i.e., the famous English-speaking saleslady at Eaton's dept store)?

I consider myself every bit as much a Quebecker as a Lio or as an Acajack, but the question is whether the feeling is mutual.

At least as far as the Bloc is concerned, you would be Quebecois.

From A "Québécois Nation"? Harper Fuels an Important Debate:

The wording itself suggests a clue to the government’s intention. The original Bloc motion, which had identified the “Québécois” as a nation, referred to them in English as “Quebeckers”. That is, a territorial concept, encompassing everyone who inhabits Quebec irrespective of first language or ethnic origin. This is now the common definition of “Québécois” in Quebec. Harper’s motion, in contrast, used the term “Québécois” in both French and English versions, an ethnic connotation implying that only those whose first language is French qualified as a “nation.”

The Tories, like many other MPs, seemed confused by the terminology. Le Devoir reporter Hélène Buzzetti asked Harper’s Quebec lieutenant Lawrence Cannon if the reference to “Québécois” included all residents of Quebec “without regard to the boat on which their ancestors arrived?” Not really, the minister replied. It referred only to the “French Canadians” who happened to live in Quebec.

Buzzetti then asked if she was a Québécoise since her Italian ancestors had arrived in America long after Champlain. She might be, Cannon replied, if she “felt” she was Québécoise. He added: “But I don’t think it’s a question of forcing someone who does not feel he is Québécois, who must necessarily be bound to that thing… There are some people who basically have opted for Canada.” What about the Quebec Anglophones, then, are they Québécois, the reporter persisted. “They can be,” said Cannon, whose Irish forebears settled in Quebec in 1795. “I consider myself to be Québécois.”

Cannon then accused the Bloc members of holding an ethnic “old stock” definition of Quebec. But Bloc leader Gilles Duceppe pointed out that in the Bloc’s view anyone who inhabits Quebec is a “Québécois”. It was the Tories, with their purely subjective definition, who were fostering “ethnic nationalism” – the same charge they and other federalists have levelled, unjustly, against Quebec nationalists such as Jacques Parizeau, the former Parti québécois leader.

[JHikka]

https://www.680news.com/2020/07/27/contr...an-flag-displayed-at-opp-union-building/

Controversial version of Canadian flag displayed at OPP union building

"A black Canadian flag with a single blue line in the center is flying outside the Ontario Provincial Police Association building in Barrie, instead of the red and white maple leaf flag.

Recently, the Thin Blue Line flag has been waved by pro-police supporters, countering protests across North America demanding racial justice and an overhaul to policing."

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by jamincan

This seems to be getting at the pull between civic and ethnic nationalism. I'm not particularly well-versed in political theory, but the French would typically be considered the example of civic identity rooted in shared values, philosophy, and language. There isn't really a French ethnicity.

This is what I see as a civic identity too. I never knew my "heritage" until late in my twenties, I knew I had the wrong skin colour and eye colour, but never I had experienced racism. Cultural heritage has nothing to do with skin colour. I had ployes instead of shawarmas and the current cultural mood I will always find ultra racist. I always felt as a genuine New Brunswicker though.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

https://www.680news.com/2020/07/27/contr...an-flag-displayed-at-opp-union-building/

Controversial version of Canadian flag displayed at OPP union building

"A black Canadian flag with a single blue line in the center is flying outside the Ontario Provincial Police Association building in Barrie, instead of the red and white maple leaf flag.

Recently, the Thin Blue Line flag has been waved by pro-police supporters, countering protests across North America demanding racial justice and an overhaul to policing."

Any covert symbolism to the fact that the thin blue (police) line is superimposed over the black background of the flag???

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If you choose to live your life in English in Quebec, as is your right, what does it matter what language the majority speaks? It certainly doesn't make you a "sort", although it does imply certain sacrifices.
Personally, I'd like to meet the woman referenced by Acajack a few posts back, who spoke in English to the French language media - such courage in the defence of freedom is admirable.

If that's your right, then surely it's our right to consider you an —, as long as we don't do anything illegal about it. Right...?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Any covert symbolism to the fact that the thin blue (police) line is superimposed over the black background of the flag???

The dark colour is allegedly meant to “show respect”, according to one media report I saw, although how or for whom is not clear to me.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Well of course. I and my two brothers learned French, as did my mother at a much later age. One of my father's great regrets is not learning French. Personally I have no time for those people who intend on living in Quebec without making an effort to learn the language of the majority...are there many of this sort left (i.e., the famous English-speaking saleslady at Eaton's dept store)?

I consider myself every bit as much a Quebecker as a Lio or as an Acajack, but the question is whether the feeling is mutual.

You might be more of a Quebecker than either of us depending on the metric used, considering I'm half foreign and that 0% of his family tree is from inside Quebec's borders.

(i.e. if the metric is "what % of your family tree was living in Quebec in 1950 or 1900" then for length of Quebec roots, it's probably MolsonExport > lio45 > Acajack.)

BTW I am absolutely open to considering you a Quebecker, the main factor I would see working against you is that I think you permanently settled in Southwestern Ontario a long time ago, which would in my book tend to make you an Ontarian.

If I had to render a less guesswork-y judgment I'd at least have to have a quick conversation in French with you, and also ask a few basic questions.

[p_xavier]

Actually the latest few pages have "triggered" me. Mixed ethnicity and mixed culture seem to have no value in the intersectionality philosophy. Oh, I'm the grand child of a lebanese tyrant who raped a converted native nun, which had a child with an orphan irish with a fille du roi. I — hate identity politics.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Actually the latest few pages have "triggered" me. Mixed ethnicity and mixed culture seem to have no value in the intersectionality philosophy. Oh, I'm the grand child of a lebanese tyrant who raped a converted native nun, which had a child with an orphan irish with a fille du roi. I — hate identity politics.

—. With a few variances that sounds like my family tree. We could almost be cousins!

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by lio45

There might be a direct Polish analogue to the Old Stock Anglo-Montrealer: is there anyone still living in current (western) Poland who's pure German and whose family has been there continuously since medieval times and they've somehow managed to avoid post-WWII deportation and they're still doing all their shopping and living in German which gets them understood well enough in 2020 (it's a major language) even though life goes on in Polish all around them...?

I wonder if they'd be considered fully Polish...

Much of them are called Lausatians and speak a different (but familiar) language from the Poles.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

You might be more of a Quebecker than either of us depending on the metric used, considering I'm half foreign and that 0% of his family tree is from inside Quebec's borders.

(i.e. if the metric is "what % of your family tree was living in Quebec in 1950 or 1900" then for length of Quebec roots, it's probably MolsonExport > lio45 > Acajack.)

BTW I am absolutely open to considering you a Quebecker, the main factor I would see working against you is that I think you permanently settled in Southwestern Ontario a long time ago, which would in my book tend to make you an Ontarian.

If I had to render a less guesswork-y judgment I'd at least have to have a quick conversation in French with you, and also ask a few basic questions.

Well, I do have some Québécois in my family tree, though they are a small minority.

But if MolsonEx can pull off a Lesley Chesterman, Judi Richards or Nanette Workman, he's in!

(Betcha he could.)

[harls]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If you choose to live your life in English in Quebec, as is your right, what does it matter what language the majority speaks? It certainly doesn't make you a "sort", although it does imply certain sacrifices.
Personally, I'd like to meet the woman referenced by Acajack a few posts back, who spoke in English to the French language media - such courage in the defence of freedom is admirable.

Such courage? Whatever. — disturber is more like it.

[kool maudit]

The tendency is to focus on the more porous ways of looking at this, as they signify a welcoming nature and a certain broad-mindedness. They are perhaps the only ones on which policy can be built given the current philosophy. But they are not all that exists.

As noted, I live in Sweden but am not Swedish. I could conceivably be Swedish by way of appearance, but I am a foreign non-citizen resident who speaks the language with a heavy, halting accent. I plan to fix this and to eventually apply for citizenship, but even if I do this, I will see myself as a Canadian in Sweden who has made the necessary adaptations.

A friend of mine is of Polynesian ancestry but was adopted as an infant by a Swedish family. He speaks fluent Swedish, is conversant with all Swedish cultural norms and references, and has lived his entire life in Sweden. To my eyes, he must be considered a sort of Swede. What else could he be? He has no connection to, or solid knowledge of, his ancestors and their land.

But...

But.

Karl Svensson from Sundsvall, son of Magnus and Ebba, a visible Viking whose grandmother taught him what to leave out for the trolls so they wouldn't act up... he is something, he has a category, no? He is Swedish in a profound way. He is racially, ethnically Swedish.

I can understand that no contemporary Western nation wishes to recognize whatever difference exists between Karl and my friend, nor do we personally. Many would even be reluctant to outline the difference between Karl and me! It seems dangerous on the large scale and churlish on the small. The trend is to ignore it, and even to talk off-handedly about some future global métissage if it is brought up. But Karl really is Swedish in the most absolute way*, just as Nataana is Maasai in this way and Daryoosh is Persian.

I don't really have a solid identity of this type, as my ancestors joined across a meaningful, persistent local division (Anglo-Saxon and Celt**) that is the site of conflict in living memory. But some people do. And Karl really is "more Swedish" than both me (to a near-infinite degree) or my fully acculturated friend (to a much smaller one connected to the realm of ancestors) in a real sense, although it is not one, quite understandably, that the state recognizes or emphasizes.



(* So, of course, where did the Swedes come from? Karl may be Swedish in an absolute sense, but there is a point in the past where that identity was formed out of smaller tribes. This is the question of ethnogenesis -- when does a people form? Because of 19th-century pseudoscience and its 20th century hangover, we have corrected from a very rigid typology to a very fluid one in which ethnogenesis either doesn't happen or is on its way to happening in a singular, global sense. But when we do that, we are not taking the world on its own terms. We are saying there are no Maasaii, there were no Babylonians. Do we want to do that? Out of fear? It's not the approach of a relaxed, fascinated person.)

(** My grandparents' generation might have called this mix "Canadian", arguing that ethnogenesis happened for English Canadians out of this common mix. I don't think it did. I don't think it set, and I don't think that mix was dominant -- common, but not really dominant. But it goes to show how fluid and dynamic these things are)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'd like to hear Acajack's opinion of this perspective.

KW is actually correct in pointing out that she is exercising her freedoms, but the real question is whether she is being productive or constructive in doing so? (The latter two things being what her role was supposed to be.)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

KW is actually correct in pointing out that she is exercising her freedoms, but the real question is whether she is being productive or constructive in doing so? (The latter two things being what her role was supposed to be.)

So, in other words, you agree with Harls that she is being a — disturber (but you're just more diplomatic).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I don't really have a solid identity of this type, as my ancestors joined across a meaningful, persistent local division (Anglo-Saxon and Celt**) that is the site of conflict in living memory. But some people do. And Karl really is "more Swedish" than both me (to a near-infinite degree) or my fully acculturated friend (to a much smaller one connected to the realm of ancestors) in a real sense, although it is not one, quite understandably, that the state recognizes or emphasizes.

(...)
(** My grandparents' generation might have called this mix "Canadian", arguing that ethnogenesis happened for English Canadians out of this common mix. I don't think it did. I don't think it set, and I don't think that mix was dominant -- common, but not really dominant. But it goes to show how fluid and dynamic these things are)

Yeah, though I would say that Anglo-Canadian ethnogenesis did take place partially, or it was happening and then for some reason it aborted. Or perhaps it just veered off in another direction at one point.

Certainly there is a way of being (speech, mannerisms, outlook, lifestyle, etc.) that has developed and that is common to people who live in English-speaking parts of Canada and who might be of Scottish-Irish-English or English-Welsh-Irish or German-Ukrainian-English or English-French-Indigenous or Dutch-Finnish-French, etc. origin that makes them for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from each other.

You are correct in that it stopped well short of the trappings that peoples who are the result of ethnogenesis almost always have, like a common folk culture, unique traditions that are widely shared, etc.