The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think you could argue the bilingual social circles (which some people have called a kind of natural ruling class for Canada) form their own in-group too.

Indeed. The bilingual elite in business and government can almost be considered a form of family compact destined to perpetually rule the rest of us. This is especially true with the Montreal/Ottawa Laurentian Elite.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

All Cape Bretoners are Nova Scotians, but not all Nova Scotians are Cape Bretoners.

There are sometimes "underdog" identities, like Cape Bretoner. There are also expansive identities in places or cultures that strive to grow either by attracting migrants or by expanding their hinterland.

For example in Halifax you hear about generic Atlantic or Maritimer identities. This sometimes annoys the — out of people around the region but Haligonians see their city as the natural capital of at least the Maritimes if not Atlantic Canada.

Toronto and Ontario are like this for Canada in some ways and that also annoys the — out of other Canadians. Toronto is naturally a big tent kind of place.

There's a related theory about the "somewheres" and the "anywheres". The "somewheres" tend to be small town or rural and associated with roots in a specific place while the "anywheres" are more urban and mobile. The "somewheres" are less inclined to accept newcomers.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed. The bilingual elite in business and government can almost be considered a form of family compact destined to perpetually rule the rest of us. This is especially true with the Montreal/Ottawa Laurentian Elite.

But we should note that Stephen Harper was not from this group and Jean Chrétien was not born into it. Justin Trudeau on the other hand is a textbook example.

[MolsonExport]

To be Quebecois, it appears that one must assimilate into the dominant, Quebecois de souche culture.

Anglos and Allos that have sketchy French, notwithstanding their birthright, are not Quebecois (i.e., they'd fail that Likert-scale test that Lio was talking about). Neither are members of the First Nations. A francophone that grew up in Ontario is instantly accepted as a Quebecois once s/he moves over the border.

As usual, the majority not only defines who is the majority, but also who is the minority, and what the traits of the majority and minority are.

I am glad that we cleared this up. It confirms what I felt at a Fete Nationale public celebration a couple of decades ago, upon encountering the "Le Quebec aux Quebecois!!" chanting. This is, and will always be, the Achilles heel (as well as perhaps the greatest strength) of the sovereigntist movement. Blood and soil.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And, as we have just found out, Mordechai Richler may be a Quebecker, but he is not Quebecois.

Under an alternate history scenario where he was born 20-30 years later than he was, things might have turned out a bit differently.

Many anglophone Montrealers of Richler's generation grew up with a certain number of "certainties" about their immediate societal environs, and then all of a sudden the world around them brusquely changed.

I know it's a somewhat different situation but I sometimes try to put myself in their shoes by thinking how I would react if in a fairly short period of time, it was decided that a whole bunch of stuff in society would be in, say, Algonquin. And that I would have to learn it and use it in order to continue to have a number of the things I enjoy. And that some people would be hostile towards me if I resisted or stumbled.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

To be Quebecois, it appears that one must assimilate into the dominant, Quebecois de souche culture.

Anglos and Allos that have sketchy French, notwithstanding their birthright, are not Quebecois (i.e., they'd fail that Likert-scale test that Lio was talking about). Neither are members of the First Nations. A francophone that grew up in Ontario is instantly accepted as a Quebecois once s/he moves over the border.

As usual, the majority not only defines who is the majority, but also who is the minority, and what the traits of the majority and minority are.

I am glad that we cleared this up. It confirms what I felt at a Fete Nationale public celebration a couple of decades ago, upon encountering the "Le Quebec aux Quebecois!!" chanting. This is, and will always be, the Achilles heel (as well as perhaps the greatest strength) of the sovereigntist movement. Blood and soil.

I think it depends on how one defines "assimilate".

If we're talking about the true definition of the term, which is to "take in" something and understand it fully, then I think you're right. It's more than just saying "bonjour" and "merci" at the dépanneur.

OTOH it doesn't go as far as the usual Canadian definition of "assimilation" which implies transferring from group to another and leaving most or all of the characteristics of the former behind.

As such, I don't think that for an anglophone to be considered to be Québécois they need to completely stop speaking in English with their family, for example. Though perhaps once upon a time that was unfortunately the perception, but I do feel things have evolved since then.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

UMany anglophone Montrealers of Richler's generation grew up with a certain number of "certainties" about their immediate societal environs, and then all of a sudden the world around them brusquely changed.

Even that change, which took place in the 1970's and was winding down in the 1980's, is receding into history now. He died almost 20 years ago.

(The residential parts of his old neighbourhood probably look pretty similar today to what they looked like in the 1950's though. Montreal has some time-capsule-like neighbourhoods that are hard to find in other Canadian cities at this point.)

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So, by using this metric, the new president of the SAANB who was interviewed on the CBC Moncton morning radio show today probably should not be considered a "New Brunswicker" then either (an Acadian for sure, but not an NBer). His fluency in English was terrible, and you could tell he was having great difficulty in expressing himself. His accent was very thick.

If a Quebec Anglophone was interviewed on the Radio Canada morning show in French, trying his best to get his point across, but mangling the language of Voltaire despite his best efforts, would he be simply dismissed and ignored by the average Quebecois?

This smacks of a double standard.

I know that Quebec is officially unilingual French and that NB is officially bilingual, but still, if an anglo-Quebecer gives it his best shot and falls short, and a new Ukranian-Quebecer also gives it his best shot with similar results and gets a pass, is this fair? Isn't this by definition racist????

A Québecois IMO is a mindset. I had the same in my childhood, a Chinese descendant who was born in NB with the Brayon culture was part of the Brayon. A white anglophone who moves there will never ever be a Brayon. That is where interculturalism works where multiculturalism fails. Having one main cultural background makes it being part of us, regardless of the ethnic or racial origins.

This is the opposite of racism. That's why francophones laugh at the concept of cultural appropriation. Multiculturalism puts barriers and racial tensions.

I will never ever consider myself an Ontarian or Quebecer, I'm an NB-er who lives in Ontario. That should be enough.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Anglos and Allos that have sketchy French, notwithstanding their birthright, are not Quebecois

"Birthright" doesn't really matter to culture nor ethnicity, though. For example, my father was born in Morocco; that doesn't make him a local at all, should he return there (which he's done a few times in his life, as a tourist).

I don't think it's unreasonable to tie language to nationality (not even sure you suggested or implied it, I don't want to strawman you). If I'm making a list of what characteristics are typical/defining of Poles, "the ability to speak the Polish language" is going to be near the top of it for sure. And if I move to Poland and refuse to learn any Polish, I don't think it would be defensible to say "the Poles are being so mean, they aren't considering me fully part of their "us"!"

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Birthright" doesn't really matter to culture nor ethnicity, though. For example, my father was born in Morocco; that doesn't make him a local at all, should he return there (which he's done a few times in his life).

It's actually fairly simple, at least to a rough approximation.

1) There are the physical characteristics or filial relationships you are born with and basically can't change (today we talk about genetics, in the past it was who your parents are).
2) There are cultural characteristics you can pick up (although it may be difficult, or sometimes easy by design as with a lot of religions).

The in-group out-group dynamic is sometimes rooted in (1) and sometimes in (2). In Western countries we are seeing a shift from (1) to (2), which is almost complete now. In some backward rural areas in NA you still find (1) although it lives on more in fiction than reality now in Canada.

(1) is more associated with racism than (2).

[lio45]

There might be a direct Polish analogue to the Old Stock Anglo-Montrealer: is there anyone still living in current (western) Poland who's pure German and whose family has been there continuously since medieval times and they've somehow managed to avoid post-WWII deportation and they're still doing all their shopping and living in German which gets them understood well enough in 2020 (it's a major language) even though life goes on in Polish all around them...?

I wonder if they'd be considered fully Polish...

[begratto]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

To be Quebecois, it appears that one must assimilate into the dominant, Quebecois de souche culture.

You don't have to assimilate to it, but you have to aknowledge that it's there, and make a effort (even small) to participate to it.

Originally Posted by lio45

"Birthright" doesn't really matter to culture nor ethnicity, though. For example, my father was born in Morocco; that doesn't make him a local at all, should he return there (which he's done a few times in his life, as a tourist).

I don't think it's unreasonable to tie language to nationality (not even sure you suggested or implied it, I don't want to strawman you). If I'm making a list of what characteristics are typical/defining of Poles, "the ability to speak the Polish language" is going to be near the top of it for sure. And if I move to Poland and refuse to learn any Polish, I don't think it would be defensible to say "the Poles are being so mean, they aren't considering me fully part of their "us"!"

👆 this. Exactly.

[lio45]

Yeah, I detect a bit of hostility in some comments, which IMO isn't really necessary.

"I can't help but notice that I'm Polish while you're German" is not inherently mean or hostile, it can be a perfectly neutral and factual observation.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by someone123

But we should note that Stephen Harper was not from this group and Jean Chrétien was not born into it. Justin Trudeau on the other hand is a textbook example.

Diefenbaker, Clark, Campbell, were outsiders too, no. Mulroney was not “born into it” (although he embraced it with enthusiasm). One sees a trend ....

[Acajack]

As an example, my parents are both francophone Acadians from the Maritimes. I have lost track at this point but they've probably lived in Ontario off and on for over half their lives. They are in their 70s. Their latest period of residence in Ontario goes back several decades.

They have assimilated to or some Ontario cultural traits during that time. They speak English, they watch Ontario-based news in English, read Ontario newspapers in English. They interact with their anglophone neighbours in English and count many of them as close friends. But they still speak French between themselves, they still also have a circle of francophone friends, and they still consume francophone culture. My dad still watches L'Antichambre on RDS and my mom follows Québécois news channels and celebrity gossip.

Ontario's societal culture which is almost entirely in English is by no means alien to them, but they haven't jettisoned their francophone culture either.

I suppose they could have tuned it out more and attempted to live a solely francophone cultural existence. But that wouldn't really have made them Ontario people who happen to have an important francophone dimension to their personas. They would have been francophone Canadians who just simply happen to live in a defined territory called Ontario.

There is a difference between the two.

[someone123]

I don't know enough about it to know what to make of it but you can read articles written during the last couple of years that debate the "Germanification" of Königsberg/Kaliningrad and how worried Moscow is about it. It is around 1% German, but it could be that people there are increasingly likely to participate in Eurozone type culture rather than Russian culture. Kaliningrad has very artificial borders as a strategic Russian port that is surrounded by EU countries.

The area around Opole in Poland is around 10% German. Plus Eastern Germany was in the Soviet Bloc so there might have been continued cross-pollination post WWII. My guess knowing nothing about that area in particular is that there is a true culturally German minority there.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Diefenbaker, Clark, Campbell, were outsiders too, no. Mulroney was not “born into it” (although he embraced it with enthusiasm). One sees a trend ....

I guess some people might argue that these politicians served at the pleasure of elites operating behind the scenes. I don't know if that's true or false. I don't think you could plausibly claim that Stephen Harper was anointed by elites in Montreal and Ottawa.

I don't think we have really had a Donald Trump that won in spite of a lack of support of his own party. I think that would be more difficult in Canada than the US since our PM is a part of parliament and a party leader rather than in some largely independent office. JT, if he were skilled and independent, might have been a Trumpian figure and won despite his own party fighting against him.

[lio45]

There's something very typically New World / blank slate (the exact sort of thing that's so attractive to an Afghan in Stockholm) in the way you phrased what is likely (for many) the general definition of what a NBer is: "anyone with a pulse who happens to currently reside within the borders of New Brunswick".

I think that for us Québécois, this notion is less natural than it is for most Anglo-Canadians. We're probably at least halfway between you guys ("blank slate") and well defined cultural ethnostates like Poland, if not even closer to the ethnostate end of the spectrum.

On a related note, after over 4 months of living in Vancouver, I would never even think of considering myself "a Vancouverite". I think my minimum threshold for this would be at least a few years. I could be tempted by the siren song of tax-free capital gains someday, which means the mansion I'd be flipping would be where my personal mail would get sent for at least one year, but even that would not in my mind turn me into a Vancouverite.

When you moved to BC, I assume it took you a few years to consider yourself a local? (I am pretty sure you do, nowadays. Though you still post about Halifax like it's your hometown.)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

On a related note, after over 4 months of living in Vancouver, I would never even think of considering myself "a Vancouverite". I think my minimum threshold for this would be at least a few years. I could be tempted by the siren song of tax-free capital gains someday, which means the mansion I'd be flipping would be where my personal mail would get sent for at least one year, but even that would not in my mind turn me into a Vancouverite.

When you moved to BC, I assume it took you a few years to consider yourself a local? (I am pretty sure you do, nowadays. Though you still post about Halifax like it's your hometown.)

I have lived in BC multiple times. I follow Halifax construction stuff as a hobby. I might consider myself a "local" of both Vancouver and Halifax but I don't think about it much (I also lived in Toronto and spent a bunch of time there although I don't get back as often lately). I have a lot more social ties to Vancouver now than to Halifax.

I think the high prices and lack of "real estate mobility" here in Vancouver contribute to people being less likely to feel as though they are locals with roots and a lifelong plan in the city. Either you don't own here or you always have the "cash out" option. Few people raise kids here, and they are another force to anchor people to a single place.

Halifax has a lot more local-specific culture than Vancouver does even though it is a much smaller city. It is also a "melting pot" for regional culture, and a place with historical minorities that are considered special (e.g. Acadian, African Nova Scotian; Mi'kmaq too but that is highly analogous to BC). There are a bunch of Atlantic or NS celebrities (mostly musicians and comedians) that have a low or no profile in the rest of Canada, or who got regionally famous then made the leap nationally. It is easier to seem like you are "from away" to people in Halifax, but being insular is seen as gauche there. So it is a mix. It is not a complete blank slate and it is not an ethnostate.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As an example, my parents are both francophone Acadians from the Maritimes. I have lost track at this point but they've probably lived in Ontario off and on for over half their lives. They are in their 70s. Their latest period of residence in Ontario goes back several decades.

They have assimilated to or some Ontario cultural traits during that time. They speak English, they watch Ontario-based news in English, read Ontario newspapers in English. They interact with their anglophone neighbours in English and count many of them as close friends. But they still speak French between themselves, they still also have a circle of francophone friends, and they still consume francophone culture. My dad still watches L'Antichambre on RDS and my mom follows Québécois news channels and celebrity gossip.

Ontario's societal culture which is almost entirely in English is by no means alien to them, but they haven't jettisoned their francophone culture either.

I suppose they could have tuned it out more and attempted to live a solely francophone cultural existence. But that wouldn't really have made them Ontario people who happen to have an important francophone dimension to their personas. They would have been francophone Canadians who just simply happen to live in a defined territory called Ontario.

There is a difference between the two.

I think they struck a good balance between maintaining their culture and assimilating into the local culture.