Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

Thanks for sharing.

One question, is this your only vehicle or do you have a hybrid/ICE as well?

Only car, oc transpo occasionally

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I hope roger1818 sees this.

This is exactly why I was arguing that chargers at grocery stores make a lot of sense.

They are a great starting point. But reduced speed L2 at workplaces, and L2 at destinations would be great.

I feel like I’m choosing places because they have a charger sometimes.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Only car, oc transpo occasionally

One car here, too, hybrid, and indoor parking in an old building so I can't add a charger. I can request a spot where I can add 110v but that means moving to another parking spot and none are currently available where power could be installed. We mainly walk and used OC a fair bit as well. Covid, of course, has changed that and we use the car now just to go to the grocery store since we no longer walk over almost daily and bring home a small amount at a time.

In the meantime, I'm lobbying the owner to put in a shared spot since I'm not the only one wanting an EV.

I have range anxiety due to one kid not living close by (and the mother's urge to be able to get to him in an emergency.) So a 110v plus what you do should do the trick. It was helpful 'meeting' someone in the same situation as us and hearing it can work for them.

My car is due for replacement (not worn out but we'd like one with drive assist features) and I've put that off for a year while waiting to see what PHEV come on the market. Most are too small for our uses. My current car is perfect but no longer sold in North America.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

roger1818 literally argued against public investment for changers at OnRoute centres.

Excuse me? Do you even read my posts or are you only capable of scarecrow arguments? Here is what I said about installing DC Fast chargers at OnRoutes:

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have them, but more important than making ownership less "painless" is making it possible. Not being able to drive somewhere because there are no charging stations on that route is a higher priority than saving a couple minutes on a route that already has lots. In a perfect world we would put them along all provincial highways and at the the OnRoutes, but given the choice, I would pick the highways that don't have charging stations.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I hope roger1818 sees this.

This is exactly why I was arguing that chargers at grocery stores make a lot of sense.

Once again, did you read CyrusKafaiwu's post?

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

When I choose to use an L2 charger, it’s typically for a mall visit or grocery store visit (thank you, IGA Plateau or Farmboy Westboro).

(emphasis added by me)

In case you forgot, here is what you said about mall chargers:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That makes sense at an outlet mall. But it makes no sense at all if you want to enable regular charging. The question here is what are you building chargers for. Are you building them for people to top up? Or as genuine alternatives for those who can't charge at work or home? If the latter, then you should be targeting the most common and longest duration activities aside from work. And I can't think of anything more than grocery shopping and gym workouts that people do regularly and for long enough that the car is parked long enough to charge.

A few questions for CyrusKafaiwu though:

1. How many kilometres do you typically drive in a week?
2. If you could only charge at grocery stores (assuming you don't go to a gym on a regular basis), would you be able to get enough charge back into your car or do you need to recharge at other places, like malls?
3. Would being able to charge at home make life easier for you?

IMHO, if we really want widespread adoption of BEVs, we need to make it possible (and affordable) for everyone to charge where they park when they sleep. It won't be easy (the 80/20 rule is definitely at play here), but that is the long term goal we need to work towards. While some people (like CyrusKafaiwu) can make it work without, most people couldn't be bothered and would just buy an ICEV instead.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Excuse me? Do you even read my posts or are you only capable of scarecrow arguments?

Correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't you say you'd prefer public investment directed elsewhere, over and above, OnRoutes? And then a long discussion on how EVs don't and shouldn't be using the 401. If I misunderstood and misrepresented your viewpoint, I apologize. But it certainly seemed that you think public investment should be directed towards and prioritizes non-400 series expressways (because you think there's enough infrastructure off these highways).

Originally Posted by roger1818

Once again, did you read CyrusKafaiwu's post?

Did you? He specifically mentioned two grocery stores. Why didn't you bold that bit?

Originally Posted by roger1818

In case you forgot, here is what you said about mall chargers:

That was in response to your specific example of an outlet mall as a long distance trip. I will stand by my thesis that people go to grocery stores far more often than they do malls. And that's mostly because our malls don't have grocery stores in them.

Originally Posted by roger1818

A few questions for CyrusKafaiwu though:

1. How many kilometres do you typically drive in a week?
2. If you could only charge at grocery stores (assuming you don't go to a gym on a regular basis), would you be able to get enough charge back into your car or do you need to recharge at other places, like malls?
3. Would being able to charge at home make life easier for you?

IMHO, if we really want widespread adoption of BEVs, we need to make it possible (and affordable) for everyone to charge where they park when they sleep. It won't be easy (the 80/20 rule is definitely at play here), but that is the long term goal we need to work towards. While some people (like CyrusKafaiwu) can make it work without, most people couldn't be bothered and would just buy an ICEV instead.

Exactly what I've said along. This is why I keep saying that there needs to a hell of a more sincere effort at getting chargers in buildings. Telling people, "We changed the rules so you can battle your condo board and pay the whole bill." isn't sincere.

And beyond the home, target places that more people have to visit frequently. I think that's grocery stores and gyms. Malls and places of worship in some cases. I've asked you to brainstorm other places you think people visit weekly beyond home and work. I'd like to hear your ideas.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

They are a great starting point. But reduced speed L2 at workplaces, and L2 at destinations would be great.

I feel like I’m choosing places because they have a charger sometimes.

In your experience, should grocery stores have fast chargers or is a high rate L2 sufficient?

I'm really curious about your usage. I think it would be closer to how my family would use an EV. We're a one car family too. And I take transit to work (outside of the pandemic). How much do you drive in a typical week? And what's your charging pattern like? What's the obstacle to charging at home or work for you? Are you going to the malls to charge or is it actually concurrent activity?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In your experience, should grocery stores have fast chargers or is a high rate L2 sufficient?

I'm really curious about your usage. I think it would be closer to how my family would use an EV. We're a one car family too. And I take transit to work (outside of the pandemic). How much do you drive in a typical week? And what's your charging pattern like? What's the obstacle to charging at home or work for you? Are you going to the malls to charge or is it actually concurrent activity?

"outside the pandemic" ? How long do you think that will continue? If we figure late 2021 that is maybe half of the three years a lot of people keep a new vehicle.

Current provincial government has no interest in incentivizing EVs. A gas station takes 2 minutes to do what even a fast charger takes 30 to do so any mass adoption would basically require all of the above options and a lot more no?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

"outside the pandemic" ? How long do you think that will continue? If we figure late 2021 that is maybe half of the three years a lot of people keep a new vehicle.

That was less about other people than my family's situation. My wife is still going to work with the car. The only difference is whether I'm going to work via LRT or working from home. And our car is already 7 years old. I kept my last car for over 9 years. So I'm fine holding on to the car longer.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Current provincial government has no interest in incentivizing EVs.

The provincial government may not have an interest but the feds are certainly funding various programs. And there's charging networks being built by the utilities. Like Ivy and Electric Circuit. So it's entirely possible to align incentives properly to get charging built. Wouldn't take much. And what I'm arguing for is exactly this. The feds should create an incentive system that lets companies like grocery chains get into the charging game. Aside from of course, actually making it feasible to retrofit existing apartment and condos.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A gas station takes 2 minutes to do what even a fast charger takes 30 to do so any mass adoption would basically require all of the above options and a lot more no?

Not quite. You won't use a gas car the same way you use an EV. You aren't usually filling up from zero to full. The goal needs to be providing weekly driving needs in a sufficient time. The average commute distance is 22.8 km in Canada. So about 46 km per day. So if it's not possible to charge at work or at home, there needs to a network that can provide that range in a reasonable time at a location they regularly go to. This is actually not as onerous as it sounds. 50 kW chargers would provide most commuters weekly needs in about an hour. 10 kW L2 chargers could do the same in 5-6 hourly sessions.

So ideally a few 50 kW fast chargers at Loblaws or Metro and a few 10 kW Level 2 chargers at a GoodLife and you end up meeting all your weekly charging needs concurrently with your routine.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

One car here, too, hybrid, and indoor parking in an old building so I can't add a charger. I can request a spot where I can add 110v but that means moving to another parking spot and none are currently available where power could be installed. We mainly walk and used OC a fair bit as well. Covid, of course, has changed that and we use the car now just to go to the grocery store since we no longer walk over almost daily and bring home a small amount at a time.

In the meantime, I'm lobbying the owner to put in a shared spot since I'm not the only one wanting an EV.

I have range anxiety due to one kid not living close by (and the mother's urge to be able to get to him in an emergency.) So a 110v plus what you do should do the trick. It was helpful 'meeting' someone in the same situation as us and hearing it can work for them.

My car is due for replacement (not worn out but we'd like one with drive assist features) and I've put that off for a year while waiting to see what PHEV come on the market. Most are too small for our uses. My current car is perfect but no longer sold in North America.

If you have indoor heated parking, that is already a game changer in the winter. You will lose less range warming up the battery. (Note: usually EVs use 30% more range in the winter).

Originally Posted by roger1818

A few questions for CyrusKafaiwu though:

1. How many kilometres do you typically drive in a week?
2. If you could only charge at grocery stores (assuming you don't go to a gym on a regular basis), would you be able to get enough charge back into your car or do you need to recharge at other places, like malls?
3. Would being able to charge at home make life easier for you?

1. Hard for me to say, because of COVID. I use the car to drive to the gym (recently, phase 3) and small leisure errands.

2. No, a grocery trip would just only add 25km to my battery even though I probably already drove 10km round trip.

3. Yes, charging at home would provide me more than enough range and would be a dream.

I will note this, I dont charge my battery to full. I only charge when a L2 is available at my destination.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In your experience, should grocery stores have fast chargers or is a high rate L2 sufficient?

I'm really curious about your usage. I think it would be closer to how my family would use an EV. We're a one car family too. And I take transit to work (outside of the pandemic). How much do you drive in a typical week? And what's your charging pattern like? What's the obstacle to charging at home or work for you? Are you going to the malls to charge or is it actually concurrent activity?

I’ve only used L3 on road trips. 300km-500km a week.

Charging patterns are basically plugging in at L2 chargers when available. I go to the gym almost daily, in cases of battery less than 50%, I charge at either Lansdowne (for GoodLife lansdowne), City Hall (for GoodLife Rideau). Grocery stores I plug in if they have them.

I have no charging at work or home.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

"outside the pandemic" ? How long do you think that will continue? If we figure late 2021 that is maybe half of the three years a lot of people keep a new vehicle.

Current provincial government has no interest in incentivizing EVs. A gas station takes 2 minutes to do what even a fast charger takes 30 to do so any mass adoption would basically require all of the above options and a lot more no?

I’ll be honest, if more people got EVs. The chargers would just get more crowded.

I like that the federal government is creating L3s as a great base layer. But after, they should focus on L2s.

The key selling point is that anyone who has a plug in their garage will be able to never touch a gas station or any public charger unless they choose to drive 180km away from their garage door.

[SidetrackedSue]

I'm interested that people think it takes an hour to do grocery shopping.

In non-Covid times we walk to the store. So that presents no charging opportunity for us.

In Covid times, we drive once a week. But only once during Covid has the trip lasted about an hour. Normally it clocks in around 45 minutes.

We already work from home, we don't go to the gym. I use the car to go to my daughters 2+ times a week. I couldn't charge there. I often use it to drive to church. A charger there would be ideal for me. But unlikely to happen or be free unless I get to church really, really, early.

So, for me, getting my car charged each week would require a special outing.

My dh used to go to a movie at St. Laurent once a week, so that would be ideal, except it doesn't have a charger that I know of. I like IKEA about once a month so that works for me. But I wouldn't want it more than that. We could park downtown once a month for NAC or OLT in non-Covid times. But usually we take the bus to the NAC to save the time getting out of the garage. And the OLT garage doesn't have a charger.

And that's assuming things go back to pre-Covid use (which is 50% more than we are currently using the car, not including road trips.) We'll be x years older and are on the cusp of aging out of being able to do things by the time the 'new normal' takes place. The stages have done us no good. The NAC and OLT are closed for the foreseeable future, and my dh can't go to a movie without breaking our personal social circle rules. Church is online for the foreseeable future and even after it opens, the guidelines say I shouldn't go. (That gets dicey, I'm a supply preacher so I guess that means I'm out of work permanently now, but driving to all far flung rural churches was a good portion of my car use.)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

I'm interested that people think it takes an hour to do grocery shopping.

You're being way too literal here.

The idea here is to ballpark enough capability that a person can get the average amount of range they'd use in a week in an hour. Even higher charging rates are possible which could cut that time down. The chargers would cost more and would probably see fewer locations and chargers deployed.

In reality, targeting more of the locations that people use regularly means more opportunities to charge. And by doing that we should have enabled charging across the normal routine of most people. Obviously the preferred situation would be charging at home or work. Chargers like those at malls or grocery stores are for people who would not have those options or just want to top up.

Let's say you don't go to the gym as much as CyrusKafaiwu. But you sit at a Starbucks every day for 30 mins. If they had a 10 kW L2 charger, that would meet most of your needs. And a 20-30 top up with the 50 kW fast charger at the grocery store would be sufficient. Etc. Worst case scenario? You spend a bit more time at Loblaws.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't you say you'd prefer public investment directed elsewhere, over and above, OnRoutes?

I said the priority should be to fill in the dead zones where you can't drive a BEV.

And then a long discussion on how EVs don't and shouldn't be using the 401.

No. I even said (which you later quoted in post #382)

Originally Posted by roger1818

I’m not saying that EVs should be banned from the 401.

If you want to use 30% more energy (10% from travelling further and 20% for travelling faster) and be required to make more stops, fill your boots. This means that for many, the couple minutes saved by taking the 401 are blown away by the extra time needed for charging.

If I misunderstood and misrepresented your viewpoint, I apologize.

Apology accepted.

But it certainly seemed that you think public investment should be directed towards and prioritizes non-400 series expressways (because you think there's enough infrastructure off these highways).

That is a bit of a generalization. Certainly highways 400 and 401 seem to have enough infrastructure for now (though as BEVs become more popular, more infrastructure will be needed). I haven't done a full analysis of all the other 400 series highways.

Did you? He specifically mentioned two grocery stores. Why didn't you bold that bit?

Yes. I didn't bold that bit because it was obvious that you had already noticed it.

That was in response to your specific example of an outlet mall as a long distance trip.

Why do you keep talking about outlet malls. The malls I previously mentioned (Salmon Run and Destiny USA) are not outlet malls. Maybe you don't know any shoppers, but many people will drive long distances to go to a mall with different stores than they have locally.

I will stand by my thesis that people go to grocery stores far more often than they do malls.

I never disagreed. My thesis is people don't spend enough time at a grocery store in a week to keep their vehicle fully charged using AC Level 2 charging.

And that's mostly because our malls don't have grocery stores in them.

LOL. Some do, but I agree that is an exception. I am still trying to figure out what your thing against having charging stations in malls is? If the mall owner wants to install them, why not let them? Maybe you never go to malls, but some people do (otherwise they wouldn't exist and they wouldn't have big parking lots).

Exactly what I've said along. This is why I keep saying that there needs to a hell of a more sincere effort at getting chargers in buildings.

I don't disagree. The long term solution is not installing massive arrays of charging stations at grocery stores, it is making it so that people can charge their car while they sleep.

Telling people, "We changed the rules so you can battle your condo board and pay the whole bill." isn't sincere.

It isn't intended as a long term solution. It is an option for those who can use it that isn't available to those who rent or don't have a dedicated parking space.

If you actually read the article I linked to by the CAO, you would see that Section A is all about "Installation by the Corporation." For example, they can install an electric vehicle charging system without a vote of the owners if "estimated cost of the installation is less than 10 per cent of the annual budgeted common expenses." Granted that means you need a corporation that is supportive of EVs, but it is better than nothing.

Is this all we need as a long term solution? No, but we are the only province to have even this much legislation (BC is using Ontario as an example of what they could do).

And beyond the home, target places that more people have to visit frequently. I think that's grocery stores and gyms. Malls and places of worship in some cases. I've asked you to brainstorm other places you think people visit weekly beyond home and work. I'd like to hear your ideas.

I did previously say:

Originally Posted by roger1818

Different people have different interests. Some go see movies regularly, some go shopping, some go to the gym, some like to eat out, some spend hours at the rink, etc.

so:

• theatres,
• shopping centres,
• gyms (often in shopping centres),
• restaurants (especially sit down ones),
• sports complexes

I was also going to say bars, but because of drinking and driving, maybe not, though you could have a designated driver (maybe MAD could have an EV DD programme).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Other than Tesla, there is no true network for high powered chargers, or vehicles with quick charging 150+ capabilities. On a Tesla, you can to and from anywhere, with a minimum of 150kw fast chargers and newer 250kw ones (about half of chargers in Canada are 250kw).

Not true. Most of Petro-Canada's DC chargers support up to 175kW and most of the stations Electrify Canada is rolling out will have chargers that support up to 350kW. I will admit that very few non-Teslas currently accept those higher rates, but they are coming.

It really is Tesla vs others so when comparing BEVs, you always need to compare Tesla, other BEVs and ICE cars in 3 separate views. A Nissan LEAF is a great urban vehicle, great 2nd car for any family but can't effectively do long distances and will never displace the ICE

The LEAF Plus has a 62kWh battery, and thus has a 360km range, though granted it has issues rapid charging multiple times in a row. Most of the other newer BEVs have a longer ranges and don't have the LEAF's rapid charging issues.

By the way, GM, VW and others are free to use the Tesla Supercharger network, they decided not to use it.

That was a marketing ploy by Tesla that was worded in such a way as to make them look good while full well knowing that no one would agree to the terms and conditions. If you dig a little deeper (something fanboys never seem to do), it becomes obvious why other automakers didn't. They would have to open source all of their patents and agree not to sue anyone (even those who don't open source their patents) for patent infringement. Even Tesla doesn't live up to that standard.

Now we have 4 different charging standards (Tesla, CCS, CCS Combo & Chademo).

If you are going to make a statement, get your facts correct. In current use here in North America, in chronological order (oldest to newest) we have:

• SAE J1772 aka Type 1 (single phase AC only, was supposed to also support DC but never implemented)
• CHAdeMO (DC only, only standard that currently supports V2G and V2H).
• Tesla (extension of J1772 standard using a different connector, supports AC and DC)
• CCS Combo 1 (often abbreviated CCS since we don't use CCS Combo 2 here, backwards compatible extension of J1772 with an extra 2 pins for DC Fast Charging)

With Nisan abandoning CHAdeMO in in North America and Europe, CHAdeMO will start to die, but with there being so many LEAFs and Teslas (which can use CHAdeMO with an adapter) on the road, charging will continue to be supported for quite some time.

Europe was smart in mandating all cars to have CCS Combo (incl Tesla)

In Europe it was worse since they had all of the above plus Type 2 (mennekes) and CCS Combo 2 (which is backwards compatible with Type 2). LEAFs sold in Europe still use CHAdeMO (and I gather the Model S and X still use the Tesla connector), so there must be some level of grandfathering. Also, cars aren't required to have the full CCS Combo 2 for DC fast charging, they can have the AC only Type 2 connector, which supports 3-phase AC charging (though vehicles don't need to support that).

Europe also had the advantage that Tesla was much later to the game for them and a much smaller player. Some Europe only brands (like Renault), that used Type 2 and CCS Combo 2 connectors had significant presence in the EV space, making orphaning other standards much easier.

Doing the same thing here in North America would be much more difficult. Tesla is unlikely to abandon their proprietary connector here, yet they wouldn't make it available to everyone without some quid pro quo, so we are stuck with both J1772/CCS and Tesla connectors. In the long run, I can see more public charging stations supporting both CCS and Tesla similar to the way they currently support both CCS and CHAdeMO (like EVgo is).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I said the priority should be to fill in the dead zones where you can't drive a BEV.

Like I've said earlier, the question is one of return. Building a charging network that enables someone to b drive up to James Bay ain't cheap. And the opportunity cost of that is building infrastructure that would be used by one to two orders of magnitude more people.

Originally Posted by roger1818

If you want to use 30% more energy (10% from travelling further and 20% for travelling faster) and be required to make more stops, fill your boots. This means that for many, the couple minutes saved by taking the 401 are blown away by the extra time needed for charging.

This is based on the assumption that somebody using Hwy 7 wouldn't stop or stop very long. So the difference would be substantial. My point here is that most people are averaging 20-30 mins in total stop time going down the 401. So 100 kW chargers at the OnRoutes would do more than enough and be entirely concurrent.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you keep talking about outlet malls. The malls I previously mentioned (Salmon Run and Destiny USA) are not outlet malls. Maybe you don't know any shoppers, but many people will drive long distances to go to a mall with different stores than they have locally.

What percentage of people do you think drive to Watertown Salmon Run) and Syracuse (Destiny USA) on a regular basis to shop. I tend to think of cross-borser shopping as outlet shopping. But if that definition is bothersome, call them what you want. When we're talking about malls to install chargers at, places that are > 100 km away aren't exactly local.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am still trying to figure out what your thing against having charging stations in malls is? If the mall owner wants to install them, why not let them? Maybe you never go to malls, but some people do (otherwise they wouldn't exist and they wouldn't have big parking lots).

I have no issues with local malls putting up chargers. I just think it's not as effective a proposal for public subsidy drive not enough of the population would go there on a regular basis.

The big parking lots aren't at all indicator of activity. Malls are dying all over North America. Those huge lots are remnants of an era when they were busier. It's now space to be redeveloped. As we increasingly see in Ottawa itself.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I never disagreed. My thesis is people don't spend enough time at a grocery store in a week to keep their vehicle fully charged using AC Level 2 charging.

Fast charging would be ideal as my quick maths above showed. But if that's too expensive, Level 2 is better than nothing.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't disagree. The long term solution is not installing massive arrays of charging stations at grocery stores, it is making it so that people can charge their car while they sleep.

Unfortunately, as we've already discussed, there's no way to push retrofitting of existing buildings in any timeframe that approaches reasonable. On the other hand, give Loblaws a $100M subsidy and I'd bet they could put up 10 fast chargers at every one of their 900+ stores inside of 4 years. And that coverage would do more for apartment dwellers than any program to install chargers at condos and apartments would achieve in a decade.

Originally Posted by roger1818

If you actually read the article I linked to by the CAO, you would see that Section A is all about "Installation by the Corporation." For example, they can install an electric vehicle charging system without a vote of the owners if "estimated cost of the installation is less than 10 per cent of the annual budgeted common expenses." Granted that means you need a corporation that is supportive of EVs, but it is better than nothing.

I prefer ideas that actually deliver to legislation that creates a framework to argue endlessly at condo boards which will deliver something a decade hence. Talk <<< action.

Originally Posted by roger1818

so:

• theatres,
• shopping centres,
• gyms (often in shopping centres),
• restaurants (especially sit down ones),
• sports complexes

Good candidates. Don't know why you were so opposed to grocery stores. The fundamental problem with most of the above places is that they require patronage which can be expensive and won't cover the bulk of the population. Compared to say grocery chains, which the bulk of the population patronized once a week. I wouldn't be opposed to a broad subsidy program covering L2 chargers at most of these locations.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like I've said earlier, the question is one of return. Building a charging network that enables someone to b drive up to James Bay ain't cheap. And the opportunity cost of that is building infrastructure that would be used by one to two orders of magnitude more people.

There aren't any roads to James Bay in Ontario (which is why the Polarbear express exists) so your argument is moot (the lack of roads to various communities is a debate for a different thread).

Besides, Quebec's priority was to build charging stations to allow you to travel anywhere and they have approximately double Ontario's new EV car sales (though their subsidies will be another major factor).

This is based on the assumption that somebody using Hwy 7 wouldn't stop or stop very long. So the difference would be substantial. My point here is that most people are averaging 20-30 mins in total stop time going down the 401. So 100 kW chargers at the OnRoutes would do more than enough and be entirely concurrent.

No. If you reread my earlier post, I assumed they would want to stop, just not as frequently as you say your family does.

What percentage of people do you think drive to Watertown Salmon Run) and Syracuse (Destiny USA) on a regular basis to shop. I tend to think of cross-borser shopping as outlet shopping. But if that definition is bothersome, call them what you want. When we're talking about malls to install chargers at, places that are > 100 km away aren't exactly local.

I don't know what percentage. People do go though and while it wouldn't be useful as part of their weekly charging routine, it would still be useful. I am trying to look at the bigger picture and see at all use cases.

I have no issues with local malls putting up chargers. I just think it's not as effective a proposal for public subsidy drive not enough of the population would go there on a regular basis.

That's your opinion.

The big parking lots aren't at all indicator of activity. Malls are dying all over North America. Those huge lots are remnants of an era when they were busier. It's now space to be redeveloped. As we increasingly see in Ottawa itself.

That's a fair point.

Fast charging would be ideal as my quick maths above showed. But if that's too expensive, Level 2 is better than nothing.

Fast charging is too expensive and while I agree that AC level 2 is better than nothing, it wouldn't be enough on its own for those who can't charge at home.

Unfortunately, as we've already discussed, there's no way to push retrofitting of existing buildings in any timeframe that approaches reasonable.

What is your definition of a reasonable time-frame? If you consider Canada has set a target of 10% light duty sales to be ZEV by 2025, 30% by 2030 and only getting to 100% by 2040 and vehicles tend to last for about 10 years, we have some time to figure things out and get it right.

On the other hand, give Loblaws a $100M subsidy and I'd bet they could put up 10 fast chargers at every one of their 900+ stores inside of 4 years. And that coverage would do more for apartment dwellers than any program to install chargers at condos and apartments would achieve in a decade.

Your math is off by an order of magnitude. Even a very small DC Fast charging station will cost 100,000 (minimum). If you multiply that by 10 chargers at 900 stores, you end up with a total cost of $900M (using back of the napkin math).

Now make that 6.6kW AC Type 2 charging stations and that could work, but as we keep saying, that wouldn't be enough to meet your weekly needs.

I prefer ideas that actually deliver to legislation that creates a framework to argue endlessly at condo boards which will deliver something a decade hence. Talk <<< action.

I don't disagree, but you have to start somewhere. Less than 1% of vehicles on the road (and only about 3% of new car sales) in Ontario are plug in. That number is growing, and as it does, there will be more and more pressure for condo boards to actually do something.

Good candidates. Don't know why you were so opposed to grocery stores. The fundamental problem with most of the above places is that they require patronage which can be expensive and won't cover the bulk of the population. Compared to say grocery chains, which the bulk of the population patronized once a week. I wouldn't be opposed to a broad subsidy program covering L2 chargers at most of these locations.

I keep saying, I am not opposed, I just don't see the benefit you claim since people aren't there long enough for AC Level 2 charging.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

There aren't any roads to James Bay in Ontario (which is why the Polarbear express exists) so your argument is moot (the lack of roads to various communities is a debate for a different thread).

Pick any other place. The point stands. Putting chargers up there is an incredibly inefficient deployment of capital.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Besides, Quebec's priority was to build charging stations to allow you to travel anywhere and they have approximately double Ontario's new EV car sales (though their subsidies will be another major factor).

Quebec has substantially better infrastructure in their more settled areas though. They didn't just start out building up north and out east before making sure their major corridors were properly covered.

Originally Posted by roger1818

No. If you reread my earlier post, I assumed they would want to stop, just not as frequently as you say your family does.

My family stops 1-2 times. We've never stopped more than twice. I would say that is fairly typical. And you really only need about 20 mins of total charging time if the chargers >= 100 kW.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That's your opinion.

It's not just my opinion. It's fact. The malls are being redeveloped because they are not financially sustainable, specifically because they lack the traffic and attendance they used to. Giving them chargers won't change much. But in any program where corporate entities get subsidies for installing chargers, I have no doubts that malls would participate.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Fast charging is too expensive and while I agree that AC level 2 is better than nothing, it wouldn't be enough on its own for those who can't charge at home.

It really depends on how common L2 charging is. Yes, the grocery store will not be enough. But if we're spreading the money around to put L2 everywhere, then hopefully the gym, the coffee shop, and the mall will have one too. In that ways, the 5-6 hrs of L2 charging can be met by accessing different L2 charging at various times throughout the week. Though, to be honest that starts to look as or more painful than putting gas in your car once a week.

Originally Posted by roger1818

What is your definition of a reasonable time-frame? If you consider Canada has set a target of 10% light duty sales to be ZEV by 2025, 30% by 2030 and only getting to 100% by 2040 and vehicles tend to last for about 10 years, we have some time to figure things out and get it right.

Yeah. I don't consider multi-decade long timeframes "reasonable". This is how politicians think. And I sincerely hope most EV drivers don't think this way. Reeks of, "— you. Got mine." Ideally, I hope there's enough coverage so that 100% of urban and suburban residents can access a charger conveniently enough to meet their needs by 2030.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Your math is off by an order of magnitude. Even a very small DC Fast charging station will cost 100,000 (minimum). If you multiply that by 10 chargers at 900 stores, you end up with a total cost of $900M (using back of the napkin math).

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I have understood the $100 000 cost to be per station, not per charger. UBS had estimated that a Tesla Supercharger station costs US$250 000 to build and most of those had 4-6 charging stalls per station. So I would think a $100 000 subsidy per station would be sufficient. It's a subsidy. I am not suggesting the government foot 100% of the bill. They need enough to close the business case and get the ball rolling on forming partnerships between them and the charging networks.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't disagree, but you have to start somewhere. Less than 1% of vehicles on the road (and only about 3% of new car sales) in Ontario are plug in. That number is growing, and as it does, there will be more and more pressure for condo boards to actually do something.

Not really. If your plan is to only support 30% by 2030, then no condo board has to install chargers for at least another decade or more. Since most of that 30% can be fleet and suburban home dwellers.

"— the condo and apartment dwellers till 2040." is a strategy. I'd just like to know if that's what the various levels of government are actually aiming for. It certainly looks that way from where I sit. And increasingly looks like a lot of the EV community is down with that too.....

[CanadaGoose]

Hey guys!

Where do people spend at least 40 hours a week at?
Is it the grocery store, is it a mall, is it it the gym?

Nope, it’s at their workplace.

What can you build instead of one fast charging station at Loblaws? Probably 10 Level 2 stations?

Where can we can put them? At workplaces and Park n’ Rides.

And, how many KMs would a car get sitting there? (40-50km/h)*8 hour workday = 320 - 400 km

Wait, what? Would someone need to use it everyday, probably not, only maybe every two to three days.

[Truenorth00]

We already discussed that. The question becomes how do you build a charging network for those who don't drive to work or don't have charging at work. It's highly likely that apartment and condo dwellers use public transit more. Especially for commutes. If they can't charge at home, then what?

The ideal will always be electrification of home and workplace parking spots. But wiring up millions of parking spots will be a multi-decade endeavour. Heck, putting chargers in at every workplace parking lot and structure would take over a decade at the current pace.

[Truenorth00]

Park n Rides are actually dubious investments without some real policy controls. You leave your car at the PnR for 9+ hrs tying up a charging spot. Likelihood, the car is charging the whole time? Very low. Inefficient capital spending. Maybe if they create controlled lot areas with premium parking fees and charging included.

Or install 110V outlets at every spot and let people trickle charge. Much cheaper.

[TransitZilla]

^ Park and rides are a very dubious investment even when they are not electrified. Recent lots have cost upwards of $45K per spot. There are cheaper ways to entice people onto transit. Transit oriented development near transit stations will generate more ridership than huge parking lots.