Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[CanadaGoose]

Just an FYI.

Greyhound paid drivers per a km/mile.

Of course, they are going to take highway 7.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting. That’s the first I have heard of that. It’s also surprising since I read that Ivy was doing the rural stations this year and waiting until next year for the urban ones.

I didn't think it was a coincidence that Ivy dots were popping up the same places as Home Depot.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Your point about contractors makes some sense. There are a huge slew of BEV trucks coming out in the next couple years, so maybe they are trying to get ahead of the game.

I actually don't think they are that strategic. I think Home Depot offered them the best deal and Home Depots often tend to be located near thoroughfares or freeways. So Ivy jumped on it.

Originally Posted by roger1818

It doesn’t need to be an outlet mall. I know people who will drive to the Salmon Run Mall in Watertown or the Destiny USA Mall in Syracuse. Even the Walmart in Ogdensburg is a destination. It’s not uncommon for them to shop for a few Few hours.

That kind of shopping is exceptional though. That's my point. Nobody is driving to outlet malls every week, as they are to the grocery store.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Business are targeting their customers. They don’t really care if they are topping up while they shop or are as part of their regular routine as long as they are shopping and more importantly, spend money. Are you proposing that the government ban charging stations from locations that you don’t think are appropriate or do you just think that it’s a waste of their time and money?

Let's go back. This thread of discussion started when I suggested that Loblaws install chargers at all their locations. And I really think government should offer incentives to help businesses like Loblaws close the business case. I would like to see more chargers at locations that people frequent often, and that are aside from home and work.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Different people have different interests. Some go see movies regularly, some go shopping, some go to the gym, some like to eat out, some spend hours at the rink, etc. Just because you don’t do it regularly doesn’t mean others don’t.

Sure. But can you think of any place other than the grocer and the gym that people go to regularly that isn't work? I challenge you to suggest a venue. The only other venue I can think off for some people would be religious services.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I think you are over estimating how observant the average person is. People see what interests them.

I think you are underestimating what people actually notice when it's literally in front of them, as charging stations would be at OnRoutes. I'm not imagining a charger or two here. I'd like to see them take a whole row of spots at every OnRoute, right in front, and put up chargers at every spot.

Originally Posted by roger1818

You are probably right regarding those. I don’t go to Toronto all that much so I’m not familiar with it’s highways.

Only 7 of the 17 400-Series highways (including the QEW) are over 100km in length. Only 3 are close to or above 200 km. Most are quite short. Take a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/400-series_highways

Originally Posted by roger1818

I would probably add the 403 and maybe even the 407 (politics aside) to the list of highways that probably should have OnRoute stops but don’t.

The 407 exists entirely as a Toronto bypass. You're paying to bypass the 401 and travel fast. Nobody is going to want to stop on there. More to the point, it's an entirely suburban commuter highway. It's like suggesting that we need an OnRoute between Orleans and Carp.

The 403 is mostly suburban. There's the 80 km stretch between Woodstock and Hamilton that has rural parts. But even that has Brantford in the middle. And OnRoutes on both sides between Ingersoll and Woodstock.

On these and other suburban highways, people are just going to use chargers at malls, Home Depots or Canadian Tires.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That might be another factor but I wouldn’t discount the fuel savings as being irrelevant.

As CyrusKafaiwu points out, saves them labour costs too.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I’m not saying that EVs should be banned from the 401. I’m saying that the shorter route is more desirable because of the time saved.

Except that it doesn't save time. The 40 km difference just isn't enough to make up for the difference in speed compared to the 401. And that is before we account for road maintenance during winter. Google confirms my suspicions too. I put in my place here and my folks place in Scaborough.

By 401. 429km. 4 h 2 mins.
By Hwy 7. 375 km. 4 h 12 mins.

I would suggest that you are thinking about this like an early adopter. So you are conscientious about saving every Watt and want others to do the same. Regular middle class folks for whom a car is an appliance are not going to think about travel the same way. They want the faster trip of the 401. And they want the known amenities of the service centres. Have a kid? Services centres all have clean washrooms with diaper changing stations. Have a pet? They have drinking fountains for your pet dish and pet relieving areas. Etc.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Given that about only about 3% of new vehicles sold are plug-in (thus eligible for the rebate) and many people don’t buy new cars (only new cars are eligible) I’m not sure how many votes they are winning.

I'm sure the virtue signalling is worth more. I can buy the argument that US and European subsidies actually created a market for BEVs. It's delusional to argue that for Canada when our market is so small. And — like this doesn't make these policies look like they truly have the public's interest in mind:

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/02/24/ont...la-accusations-conflict-interest-follow/

Originally Posted by roger1818

Victoria isn’t nearly as expensive as Vancouver and it certainly isn’t as boring as Ottawa.

Wife's an EU national. So when I think of truly walkable cities with a decent quality of life, I am thinking more along those lines than Victoria.

[Tesladom]

The Hwy 7 vs 401 difference is VERY important if you drive a BEV, in my case its the difference between being able to make it on a single charge vs recharging stop.
Greater distance + higher speed means that I can't make it on a single charge using 401, but I do (or did before COVID) Orleans to Mississauga every 4-6 weeks, 439km door to door via HWy7

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

The Hwy 7 vs 401 difference is VERY important if you drive a BEV, in my case its the difference between being able to make it on a single charge vs recharging stop.
Greater distance + higher speed means that I can't make it on a single charge using 401, but I do (or did before COVID) Orleans to Mississauga every 4-6 weeks, 439km door to door via HWy7

It's a problem only because we don't have:

1) charging stations at every OnRoute.

2) enough long range EVs.

I'm starting to wonder if all of the EV drivers here are childless and companion less. Seriously. The average person (especially with a family) doesn't drive 400+ km without stopping at all. So the goal should be to enable charging at the stops they make. Put 20 chargers at every OnRoute and nobody has to decide which OnRoute to pick. Stop like they normally would and charge while they get coffee and take a piss. We shouldn't be planning infrastructure around normalizing deficiencies.

I also think the Watt pinching behaviour will be less prevalent or necessary as 400+ km range BEVs become more standard in the coming years. If you can get to Trenton/Belleville in the Winter, than you have plenty of options to stop and charge over more than half the trip.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a problem only because we don't have:

1) charging stations at every OnRoute.

2) enough long range EVs.

I'm starting to wonder if all of the EV drivers here are childless and companion less. Seriously. The average person (especially with a family) doesn't drive 400+ km without stopping at all. So the goal should be to enable charging at the stops they make. Put 20 chargers at every OnRoute and nobody has to decide which OnRoute to pick. Stop like they normally would and charge while they get coffee and take a piss. We shouldn't be planning infrastructure around normalizing deficiencies.

I also think the Watt pinching behaviour will be less prevalent or necessary as 400+ km range BEVs become more standard in the coming years. If you can get to Trenton/Belleville in the Winter, than you have plenty of options to stop and charge over more than half the trip.

There is more than enough chargers between Belleville and Toronto for a Tesla Owner.

But my two options for me;
401/416 - stop at Kingston and Pickering (issue is Kingston is a bottleneck for chargers with waiting time, it’s filled with people getting their last charge before Ottawa or Montreal due to a massive gap)
7/401 - stop at Belleville only - perfect, it is beside a shopping mall with coffee and washrooms, lots of stalls, more than enough.

I do feel bad for non Tesla owners tho, way less options available.

I still think having charging stations built between Kingston-Ottawa-Cornwall is important due to the changes you’re stuck in a traffic jam, etc. Again, it has been mentioned before accessible chargers every 150km for all types of cars would be nice.


You gotta note ottawa-Toronto is not the only place people are travelling to.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

There is more than enough chargers between Belleville and Toronto for a Tesla Owner.
....
I do feel bad for non Tesla owners tho, way less options available.

Correct. Like I've said earlier. We shouldn't be building infrastructure with just one brand of vehicle in mind.

That said, I think there's plenty of Tesla owners who might use charging infrastructure at OnRoutes if they were available. Just to avoid getting off track for long.

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

I still think having charging stations built between Kingston-Ottawa-Cornwall is important due to the changes you’re stuck in a traffic jam, etc. Again, it has been mentioned before accessible chargers every 150km for all types of cars would be nice.

The OnRoutes are about 80-100 km apart, so they are ideally spaced. And at that spacing, it's easy to skip one and just say you'll make the next one to charge.

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

You gotta note ottawa-Toronto is not the only place people are travelling to.

Yep. Which is why I said, it's kinda ridiculous there's no OnRoute on the 417. And there's some other gaps too....less relevant to this particular forum.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yep. Which is why I said, it's kinda ridiculous there's no OnRoute on the 417. And there's some other gaps too....less relevant to this particular forum.

Whenever I drive the 416 I always wonder where the logical place for an OnRoute would be and I usually end up settling on Kemptville.

Casselman would make sense on the 417, wouldn't it? That way you're still capturing Cornwall traffic and not totally bothering the folks in Hudson.

[YOWflier]

I think a good spot would be Highland Road (Highway 9/20 @ 417). There's already an Esso/Petro Can on either side of the highway and those could be consolidated into an OnRoute center. It's pretty much half way between the QC/ON border and Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Whenever I drive the 416 I always wonder where the logical place for an OnRoute would be and I usually end up settling on Kemptville.

The 416 is tough. It's ~80km from the 401 to the 417. Short enough to not really warrant a service centre. But the problem is that it's crappy to pull off for the last 20-30 km. And then no service centre on the 401 for 35-40km in either direction. I'd probably got a bit further south than Kemptville.

Originally Posted by JHikka

Casselman would make sense on the 417, wouldn't it? That way you're still capturing Cornwall traffic and not totally bothering the folks in Hudson.

Tesla put their charger in Casselman. So yeah it's a good spot. I would think bracketing the 417-138 junction with OnRoutes in each direction, would be most sensible. That way traffic on the 417 and starting/terminating off the 138 could use the service centre. It's only 40 km to Cornwall from there.

[waterloowarrior]

Herb's Travel Plaza near Vankleek Hill is about halfway between the two downtowns.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Herb's Travel Plaza near Vankleek Hill is about halfway between the two downtowns.

Why they never courted Tesla and other charging networks is beyond me.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a problem only because we don't have:

1) charging stations at every OnRoute.

As we keep saying, there are plenty of other charging stations along the 400 and 401 to make that irreverent.

2) enough long range EVs.

If you only drive an average of 80-100 km a week, do you really need a long range EV? Sure some people do put hundreds of kilometres on their vehicle a day, but most don't. Buying a vehicle that has a range you only need once or twice a year is a waste of resources.

I'm starting to wonder if all of the EV drivers here are childless and companion less. Seriously. The average person (especially with a family) doesn't drive 400+ km without stopping at all. So the goal should be to enable charging at the stops they make. Put 20 chargers at every OnRoute and nobody has to decide which OnRoute to pick. Stop like they normally would and charge while they get coffee and take a piss. We shouldn't be planning infrastructure around normalizing deficiencies.

I agree you will want to take pit stops along the route. The question is how many do you want to take? If you could save from having to make a stop you wouldn't otherwise make by taking a shorter route, and save money at the same time, wouldn't you do that?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Except that it doesn't save time. The 40 km difference just isn't enough to make up for the difference in speed compared to the 401. And that is before we account for road maintenance during winter. Google confirms my suspicions too. I put in my place here and my folks place in Scaborough.

By 401. 429km. 4 h 2 mins.
By Hwy 7. 375 km. 4 h 12 mins.

Google maps isn't optimized for BEVs and assumes you won't be stopping.

Lets assume your car has an EPA range of about 400 km (250 miles), which is about the range of a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus. That will certainly meet your daily needs and has enough legs to make a road trip possible.

Now the EPA range assumes you are driving at 55 mph (90 km/h). If you are driving faster, you loose efficiency (this is true for all vehicles, not just BEVs). According to this reference, a vehicle is

• 3% less efficient at 60 mph (≈95 km/h)
• 8% less efficient at 65 mph (≈105 km/h)
• 17% less efficient at 70 mph (≈115 km/h)
• 23% less efficient at 75 mph (≈120 km/h)
• 28% less efficient at 80 mph (≈130 km/h)

So assuming you are driving at 120 along the 416/401, that is about a 20% reduction in range, that gives you a range of 320 km. Then if it is winter, you can expect another 30-40% reduction in range due to the cold, so assuming 30%, that then drops to about 225 km. Given that you aren't going to want to drop below 20km of range or fast charge much above 80%, that means you would definitely need 2 stops to charge, wasting another 20-30 minutes.

With the shorter route, if you drive at 100 km/h most of the way, you can expect about a 5% reduction in range due to speed, so 380 km and with a 30% reduction in range due to the cold, your range becomes about 265 km, which could easily be done with only one stop, especially given the shorter distance travelled (you would only need to add an extra 110 km somewhere along the way).

Even with a full 40% reduction in range due to the cold, your range would still be about 230km, which may still be doable with an appropriately located charging station.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As we keep saying, there are plenty of other charging stations along the 400 and 401 to make that irreverent.

Agree to disagree. I think if they put up charging stations at the OnRoutes, they'd be some of the busiest in the province from opening day.

Originally Posted by roger1818

If you only drive an average of 80-100 km a week, do you really need a long range EV? Sure some people do put hundreds of kilometres on their vehicle a day, but most don't. Buying a vehicle that has a range you only need once or twice a year is a waste of resources.

I'm not thinking of my personal use case. I'm thinking of the situation 5 years from now when battery prices come down enough that BEVs are below parity with ICEVs. In that case, why would you not buy a 400 km range BEV? Isn't the goal here to facilitate broad adoption as quickly as possible, so that we can decarbonize transportation?

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree you will want to take pit stops along the route. The question is how many do you want to take? If you could save from having to make a stop you wouldn't otherwise make by taking a shorter route, and save money at the same time, wouldn't you do that?

We normally take two stops en route. When I was single, I usually did it with one. Zero stops for 400 km of driving would be pretty rare. Even for Tesla drivers.

As for saving money, an extra 50 km is what $2-3 worth of electrons? If I'm already saving say $30-40 over gas costs on that trip, why the heck would I care about $2-3 more. I mean if anybody cared that much, Hwy 7 would be far busier and the 401 would have less traffic. It is the exceptional person who will worry about saving $2-3 over 30 mins or more.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Google maps isn't optimized for BEVs and assumes you won't be stopping.

Lets assume your car has an EPA range of about 400 km (250 miles), which is about the range of a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus. That will certainly meet your daily needs and has enough legs to make a road trip possible.

Now the EPA range assumes you are driving at 55 mph (90 km/h). If you are driving faster, you loose efficiency (this is true for all vehicles, not just BEVs). According to this reference, a vehicle is

• 3% less efficient at 60 mph (≈95 km/h)
• 8% less efficient at 65 mph (≈105 km/h)
• 17% less efficient at 70 mph (≈115 km/h)
• 23% less efficient at 75 mph (≈120 km/h)
• 28% less efficient at 80 mph (≈130 km/h)

So assuming you are driving at 120 along the 416/401, that is about a 20% reduction in range, that gives you a range of 320 km. Then if it is winter, you can expect another 30-40% reduction in range due to the cold, so assuming 30%, that then drops to about 225 km. Given that you aren't going to want to drop below 20km of range or fast charge much above 80%, that means you would definitely need 2 stops to charge, wasting another 20-30 minutes.

With the shorter route, if you drive at 100 km/h most of the way, you can expect about a 5% reduction in range due to speed, so 380 km and with a 30% reduction in range due to the cold, your range becomes about 265 km, which could easily be done with only one stop, especially given the shorter distance travelled (you would only need to add an extra 110 km somewhere along the way).

Even with a full 40% reduction in range due to the cold, your range would still be about 230km, which may still be doable with an appropriately located charging station.

Right. Which is why I argue that putting the stations at the OnRoutes makes sense since you then get multiple opportunities for stops. Using the 416/401, both Mallorytown and Napanee OnRoutes would fall within that 230km hypothetical range from Ottawa. Trenton would just a bit beyond that.

Again though, you're thinking about this like an early adoptor who is obsessed with squeezing every last drop and saving every penny. That comes from an interest in EVs. You can't expect a regular muggle to think that way about BEVs. You won't see them hypermiling. To them the car is an appliance. They want to and will drive it exactly the way their ICEV. And if the government is at all interested in mass adoption of EVs, they should build the infrastructure to facilitate that.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As for saving money, an extra 50 km is what $2-3 worth of electrons? If I'm already saving say $30-40 over gas costs on that trip, why the heck would I care about $2-3 more. I mean if anybody cared that much, Hwy 7 would be far busier and the 401 would have less traffic. It is the exceptional person who will worry about saving $2-3 over 30 mins or more.

The biggest issue with EVs is public education, although it is getting better people still don't really understand their objections

Again the Hwy 7 example is not about $2-3 in electrons, its about a 30 minute pit stop in Port Hope if using the 401, or no pit stop is using Hwy 7.

I don't think anybody disagrees with the OnRoute proposal, it really makes sense. But the reality is that BEVs, except for Tesla, are primarily urban vehicles only. Other than Tesla, there is no true network for high powered chargers, or vehicles with quick charging 150+ capabilities.
On a Tesla, you can to and from anywhere, with a minimum of 150kw fast chargers and newer 250kw ones (about half of chargers in Canada are 250kw).

It really is Tesla vs others so when comparing BEVs, you always need to compare Tesla, other BEVs and ICE cars in 3 separate views. A Nissan LEAF is a great urban vehicle, great 2nd car for any family but can't effectively do long distances and will never displace the ICE

By the way, GM, VW and others are free to use the Tesla Supercharger network, they decided not to use it. Now we have 4 different charging standards (Tesla, CCS, CCS Combo & Chademo). Europe was smart in mandating all cars to have CCS Combo (incl Tesla)

[Truenorth00]

Clearly you haven't kept up with the EVs coming out soon like the Nissan Ariya, Mustang Mach E, VW Crozz, etc. They aren't "urban cars" anymore than your Tesla is. And given the investment by Electrify Canada, Ivy, Electric Circuit, the charging network gap is shrinking. Oh, and charging has now had agreed to standards for years (SAE J1772). Even Nissan dropped Chademo for the coming Ariya. Most of the networks aren't even bothering with anything but Type 1.

I have a colleague who has a Kona Electric. Does just fine getting to Mississauga right now. The days when only a Tesla is a true replacement for an ICEV are ending pretty quickly. And that competition is great for consumers. Just look at the demand for the ID3 in Europe. People are happy to have an option that is €11k less than a Model 3.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Again the Hwy 7 example is not about $2-3 in electrons, its about a 30 minute pit stop in Port Hope if using the 401, or no pit stop is using Hwy 7.

If you're single and childless, you probably don't care about stops. In the real world, very few people drive 400km without a single stop. Nor is it healthy to do that.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I don't think anybody disagrees with the OnRoute proposal, it really makes sense.

roger1818 literally argued against public investment for changers at OnRoute centres. Generally I agree with him more than disagree on most issues. But on this one, I can't see chargers at OnRoutes as anything less than eminently sensible. I hope Ivy or Electrify Canada can close to a deal to make it happen.

[CanadaGoose]

Relevant material regarding OnRoute and the current government

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/electric-vehicle-charging-doug-ford-1.5174747

Also a mention on Reddit regarding OnRoute wanted to charge insane amounts for a parking spot.

This is what happens when you privatize on routes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

This is what happens when you privatize on routes.

Privatization is fine. They just wrote a — contract. OnRoute was bought out by new owners in May of last year. Curious what their take will be. I just can't see the logic in passing up business and free infrastructure.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

I have no charger at home, 400km battery. I charge maybe every 2-3 days on a public L2 charger.

Thanks for sharing.

One question, is this your only vehicle or do you have a hybrid/ICE as well?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Right now:

I have no charger at home, 400km battery. I charge maybe every 2-3 days on a public L2 charger.

When I choose to use an L2 charger, it’s typically for a mall visit or grocery store visit (thank you, IGA Plateau or Farmboy Westboro).

To put in perspective, I receive 40-50km of charge per hour at the charger for 1.00 to 2.00 (depends on province). That’s usually enough for me to continue on driving the next day.

I only use L3 chargers when leaving the city.

I hope roger1818 sees this.

This is exactly why I was arguing that chargers at grocery stores make a lot of sense.