The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It would be some form of classism/ethnic prejudice rather than racism, but yes, I one could well make the argument, at least historically. The fact that the underclass's disadvantages persist even now suggests how long it may take Canada to make a substantial dent in the impact of systemic racism.

As is almost always the case with such matters, at least part of the problem with francophones was self-imposed. Or perhaps, it was just using the injustices built into "The System" as an easy excuse not to better oneself.

Of course, there was more than enough that was wrong with "The System" to justify wanting to change it.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not really, there is a clear pattern over several years on here.

But thanks for the nice (I think) compliment (kinda) in your other post!

Which post? This one?

Originally Posted by dleung

As with your other 500 posts on this one thread, it's your choice of focus that is telling. What's the point of pointing out George Floyd's crime if we agree that curbside execution wasn't the answer? What's the point of pointing out some perceived fear of protesters on the street if we agree that drawing 🞵🞵🞵🞵 at them wasn't the answer? What's the point of trying to discredit a movement that has no organizational hierarchy just because of the fringe ideas of some members, if we know that no one will take that part seriously? I mean how important is it to have pancake syrup with colonial undertones, compared to ending systemic racism?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Which post? This one?

No the one where you said that Quebec, like Oregon, was nice and progressive in spite of the presence of some nationalists.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

Hope you feel special, I went out and took those pics just for you - a few minutes ago; they couldn't be more fresh.

I know you haven't been here long, those aren't real protesters. They are just homeless people that have moved from one park to another.

Housing has been offered to them that they denied.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

They're clearly "occupying" the park, and they obviously have some political revendications. I mean if Warren is going to try to dispute that that's "occupation" of the park, I don't know what to say.

No, I am disputing that they are actually protesting anything in any real organized way. Do not change the argument.

I am very familiar with endless and varied "tent cities" in Vancouver. They aren't protests.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As is almost always the case with such matters, at least part of the problem with francophones was self-imposed. Or perhaps, it was just using the injustices built into "The System" as an easy excuse not to better oneself.

Of course, there was more than enough that was wrong with "The System" to justify wanting to change it.

So the francophones were just fundamentally lazier or didn't want to succeed?

If so, where did that come from?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

So the francophones were just fundamentally lazier or didn't want to succeed?

If so, where did that come from?

There were things in the culture that were hindrances to socio-economic advancement.

Like the ideas put forth by the Catholic church with respect to the accumulation of wealth.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There were things in the culture that were hindrances to socio-economic advancement.
Like the ideas put forth by the Catholic church with respect to the accumulation of wealth.

And have a million kids?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

And have a million kids?

That too.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There were things in the culture that were hindrances to socio-economic advancement.

Like the ideas put forth by the Catholic church with respect to the accumulation of wealth.

Isn't that the exact same idea as pointing out that some aspects of American Black culture (promoting the gangsta way of life, less oriented towards conventional families, etc.) tend to result in lesser socio-economic advancement and in blacks committing several times more crimes per capita a.k.a. blacks being way more often targeted and/or killed by police per capita?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I know you haven't been here long, those aren't real protesters. They are just homeless people that have moved from one park to another.

Housing has been offered to them that they denied.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

No, I am disputing that they are actually protesting anything in any real organized way. Do not change the argument.

I am very familiar with endless and varied "tent cities" in Vancouver. They aren't protests.

Well, back home, normal non-protesting homeless people don't have political slogans and flags on their tents, they just try to live. (They would also most certainly NOT refuse housing! That's a dead giveaway these people have at least some other aims and revendications.)

Whether or not they're protesting in a "real organized way" as defined by you is not really the point here. I don't mind conceding it - it's true that they aren't that organized. Doesn't change my original point much, which was that some of these people in this "stolen land blah blah reconciliation is dead" camp that recently appeared right next to where I now live, are now camping at a slightly increased comfort level thanks to the stuff I gave them. Maybe I sometime sound mean on this forum (I'm sure that's dreambrother's opinion) but in real life, I'm not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Isn't that the exact same idea as pointing out that some aspects of American Black culture (promoting the gangsta way of life, less oriented towards conventional families, etc.) tend to result in lesser socio-economic advancement and in blacks committing several times more crimes per capita a.k.a. blacks being way more often targeted and/or killed by police per capita?

Um, I guess someone could say that. Though that's not the point I was trying to make!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Um, I guess someone could say that. Though that's not the point I was trying to make!

Your general point, which I'd sum up as follows, was kinda making it, just less directly:

"If we observe consistently poorer outcomes from a group, the causes might be well self-imposed to a certain degree, maybe even an important one; we shouldn't automatically assume it's all the fault of 'The System', nor immediately conclude from that observation that the current 'System' needs a major overhaul".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Your general point, which I'd sum up as follows, was kinda making it, just less directly:

"If we observe consistently poorer outcomes from a group, the causes might be well self-imposed to a certain degree, maybe even an important one; we shouldn't automatically assume it's all the fault of 'The System', nor immediately conclude from that observation that the current 'System' needs a major overhaul".

Time to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵 your bullet-proof vest!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

Your general point, which I'd sum up as follows, was kinda making it, just less directly:

"If we observe consistently poorer outcomes from a group, the causes might be well self-imposed to a certain degree, maybe even an important one; we shouldn't automatically assume it's all the fault of 'The System', nor immediately conclude from that observation that the current 'System' needs a major overhaul".

Outcomes cannot be separated from the system though. Higher rates of crime are connected to perceptions of being trapped or feeling hopeless which are not rooted in inherently being black but in being maltreated for 100s of years as a group. There are psychological and therefore social consequences to intergenerational trauma.

Cultures also tend to value different things, so a more latin view of things where quality of life is not overrided by economic productivity does not make the latin culture lesser than. In my opinion, it is superior on that issue.

[wg_flamip]

Edit: Posted in error

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Cultures also tend to value different things, so a more latin view of things where quality of life is not overrided by economic productivity does not make the latin culture lesser than. In my opinion, it is superior on that issue.

Perhaps, but in the case of French Canadians, following those cultural instincts too strongly puts your group at an inherent disadvantage when you're sharing a political entity with people who are more numerous than you and have a different approach to such matters.

Hence the historic clash between two ways of addressing that situation: a) independence to take the francophone component out of the larger entity and place a buffer between the two, or b) working to carve out a better, meaningful place for the francophone element within the larger entity.

I am sure there are examples analogous to this one with respect to both indigenous peoples and African-Americans.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by JHikka

75% of Canadians believe RCMP has a problem with systemic racism, Nanos Research poll suggests

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics...elieve-rcmp-has-a-problem-with-systemic/

"A strong majority of Canadians believe the RCMP has a problem with systemic racism, but they are divided on whether they have confidence that the force can fix it, according to a new poll conducted by Nanos Research for The Globe and Mail.

The poll, which asked Canadians about their views on systemic racism in the national police force, found that four in 10 Canadians, or 40 per cent, believe the RCMP has a problem and have confidence they can fix it.

...

Last month, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki acknowledged the existence of systemic racism in her organization. She had previously questioned its application to the force in several interviews, including with The Globe and Mail. However, critics including some Indigenous leaders, have asked what the force is doing to address it."

https://www.crop.ca/en/blog/2017/169/

65% of Canadians say they believe in God

Maybe Canadians get it wrong sometimes.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps, but in the case of French Canadians, following those cultural instincts too strongly puts your group at an inherent disadvantage when you're sharing a political entity with people who are more numerous than you and have a different approach to such matters.

I mostly think of it as a good example of why naively looking at aggregate stats like incomes sometimes isn't very informative.

Canadians do this a lot comparing different provinces. For example they'll point out that Albertans earn more so there must be something wrong with other provinces. But Alberta, at least during the boom times, was suited to people who want to work a lot and earn a lot while places like PEI offer a slower pace of life.

There is nothing wrong per se with one person deciding to move to Alberta and work 70 hours a week while somebody else wants to live in a quiet rural area on PEI. In fact it's good that Canada offers different options that suit different preferences.

Note that the person on PEI might even want to have more money. But doesn't want it enough to move to a big city or resource town.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

From the "us too!" file...

Not sure if this has any legs but it's popped up a few times over the past week from different spheres of my social media friendscape (via friends of friends).

The idea is that if the fact that numbers show a distinct human grouping has less favourable "indicators" is apparently more than sufficient evidence that systemic racism exists, doesn't the fact that francophones in Canada have (somewhat) lower socio-economic indicator stats than anglophones, actually prove that there is systemic racism against francophones in Canada?

This one below isn't a contemporary stat, but I've seen it pop up recently.

I already knew this, of course. Quite telling from a historical perspective.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=958877961239409&set=p.958877961239409&type=3&theater

I'm not sure how much useful information about race and racism we can extract from data about language on a country-wide basis: Each linguistic community is racially diverse in its own right, which is difficult to square with the idea that one or both represents a cohesive racial identity. There may be some degree of systemic oppression of one linguistic community by another—there certainly was historically—but that's not necessarily racism. Identity is more complicated and multidimensional than that.