The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I'm all for removing whatever existing barriers are there that disadvantage someone on account of their race. I don't think these barriers are material in the Anglo-American context, but whatever is there should be remediated. If there is employment discrimination, there can be a wide range of policy interventions including agencies like the EEOC, laws against discrimination that are monitored and enforced by an agency, and technological fixes like anonymizing names during the hiring process.

But one major thing that people refuse to acknowledge is that different genetic and cultural population groups with, on average at an aggregate level, different histories, different cultures, different values, different interests, and different strengths and weaknesses will not end up being the same in terms of outcomes.

This applies even more strongly to within-race or within-population group dynamics. Equal opportunity never results in equal outcomes; some subgroups will continue to succeed while other subgroups continue to struggle.

I'd like to see a generous welfare system that takes care of those who will struggle but we should not assume that any difference in outcome, whether in-race/group or across, is due to prejudice.

The disproportionate absence of Asians in prisons in the US is not indicative of some Asian supremacy system.

The disproportionate absence of women in prisons in the US is not indicative of some matriarchal system.

The lack of men in grade school education is not indicative of some matriarchal system.

The disproportionate absence of the elderly in prisons is not indicative of systemic ageism.

Any time there is variance in outcome, you need to show your work that it's directly tied to something tangible rather than just raising some vague and abstract concept as an explanation in a sort of "God of the gaps" manner.

I see that RBC announced some significant initiatives today to improve representation in its executive positions and to generate business opportunities for people in the “BIPOC” communities. When a Canadian bank acts, it strikes me as a potentially significant “more and more”. Expect other corporations to follow suit.

Anonymized (is that a word?) hiring processes would represent a big advance against systemic bias (of all sorts), istm.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Any time there is variance in outcome, you need to show your work that it's directly tied to something tangible rather than just raising some vague and abstract concept as an explanation in a sort of "God of the gaps" manner.

I agree. A difference in outcomes might be a sign that there is discrimination but it's a starting point for investigation, not proof of discrimination. More evidence is needed to create a compelling case.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What park might this be? I haven't heard of any protesters occupying parks in Vancouver.

Hope you feel special, I went out and took those pics just for you - a few minutes ago; they couldn't be more fresh.

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[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree. A difference in outcomes might be a sign that there is discrimination but it's a starting point for investigation, not proof of discrimination. More evidence is needed to create a compelling case.

Ontario is now gathering race-based data wrt incidents of force used by the police (also wrt strip searches in the case of Toronto police), with outcomes to be made public next year, so a step in that direction. As you say, it’s a starting point.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I see that RBC announced some significant initiatives today to improve representation in its executive positions and to generate business opportunities for people in the “BIPOC” communities.

"BIPOC"? lol. So now the moral thing to do would be to fire that Hyderabad-born Microsoft exec, in order to replace his Privileged "Regular-POC-not-BIPOC" brown-skinned 🞵🞵🞵 with a BIPOC one? That's new heights!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I told him that I am sorry that he, as a Muslim, has been a victim of systemic racism or prejudice, and that I'm there for him and will listen & learn.

I would not tell anybody what to think but everyone has to grapple with paranoia. In life, there are so many situations that give us limited or no feedback. If you don't get hired for a job you might have no idea why. In such situations it can be easy to blame racism or other forms of discrimination, and they may be the true cause. Unfortunately, there is not much you can do about those situations so it can be unhealthy to dwell on them. And it's possible to lose out on opportunities because you become too suspicious of others, particularly if you get generally discouraged because you feel like you have no control over your own success. Most North Americans do have a path to success that they can control.

I can't see Robin DiAngelo as having had a positive impact on this phenomenon.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree. A difference in outcomes might be a sign that there is discrimination but it's a starting point for investigation, not proof of discrimination. More evidence is needed to create a compelling case.

Ontario is now gathering race-based data wrt incidents of force used by the police (also wrt strip searches in the case of Toronto police), with outcomes to be made public next year, so a step in that direction. As you say, it’s a starting point.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Hope you feel special, I went out and took those pics just for you - a few minutes ago; they couldn't be more fresh.

I thought this stuff was more people who are either homeless or wanted to live there, and the protest signs are sort of incidental or related to housing and wealth inequality issues or other frustrations. I'm sure there's a mix of political leanings.

I noticed Oppenheimer Park has had a big fence around it for a while. It was less of a protest than a semi-permanent "camp".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I thought this stuff was more people who are either homeless or wanted to live there, and the protest signs are sort of incidental or related to housing and wealth inequality issues or other frustrations. I'm sure there's a mix of political leanings.

I noticed Oppenheimer Park has had a big fence around it for a while. It was less of a protest than a semi-permanent "camp".

They used to be at Oppenheimer Park, were expelled not that long ago so that's where they moved.

They're clearly "occupying" the park, and they obviously have some political revendications. I mean if Warren is going to try to dispute that that's "occupation" of the park, I don't know what to say.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I'm all for removing whatever existing barriers are there that disadvantage someone on account of their race. I don't think these barriers are material in the Anglo-American context, but whatever is there should be remediated.

If this "BIPOC" thing catches on, it will 🞵🞵🞵🞵 for some groups...

Your time in the sun didn't last very long! In the past, you'd have been discriminated against (immigrant, not a WASP, brown-skinned) and in the future, same thing (of India ancestry? sorry, you're way too privileged, we're only looking for candidates who are either Black or Indigenous).

That this increasing official segmentation can be considered to be a good thing (it can only lead to more racial consciousness and division, IMO) is mind-blowing.

I also don't think RBC employees would respect very much a bank director who everyone knows has been placed in that position for the sole reason of being indigenous, for example. Any mistake and their competency will be questioned on that basis, guaranteed. If that's someone's definition of a healthier workplace, again... not sure what to say.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

If this "BIPOC" thing catches on, it will 🞵🞵🞵🞵 for some groups...

Your time in the sun didn't last very long! In the past, you'd have been discriminated against (immigrant, not a WASP, brown-skinned) and in the future, same thing (of India ancestry? sorry, you're way too privileged, we're only looking for candidates who are either Black or Indigenous).

That this increasing official segmentation can be considered to be a good thing (it can only lead to more racial consciousness and division, IMO) is mind-blowing.

I also don't think RBC employees would respect very much a bank director who everyone knows has been placed in that position for the sole reason of being indigenous, for example. Any mistake and their competency will be questioned on that basis, guaranteed. If that's someone's definition of a healthier workplace, again... not sure what to say.

On the one hand, I feel like lamenting that Hindus have been removed from the leftist pity list.

On the other hand, I think making it high up on the leftist pity list is a death knell for your community.

Look at how Muslims are faring now that left has put them at the top / near the top of their list of minority groups they pity.

I don't think concepts like Islamophobia has helped the Muslim community at all. It has helped the conservative elites of the Muslim communities. The inability to critically appraise the religion has meant that Muslims have retained more ideas incompatible with contemporary Western society; that Muslim women's issues are ignored because it would be racist to talk about that; that LGBTQ Muslims are ignored because it would be racist to talk about that.

Getting off the pity list is the best thing any community can do. I'm a human first and foremost. I would rather have someone look at me the wrong way than be patronized, pitied, essentialized and infantilized by big ego leftist White man's burden savior types.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I don't think concepts like Islamophobia has helped the Muslim community at all.

I think Islamophobia as a concept is a bit of an American import as well. I don't mean that animus toward Islam is non-existent in Canada, but there are a couple social phenomena south of the border that relate to Muslims that are much less prominent here.

One is the Iraq war, and the other is fundamentalist Christians who actually care if other people are Christian or not (I'd assume these people would not like former Christians converting to Islam either regardless of skin colour or country of birth!). This definitely became a red vs. blue culture war issue. I don't know how common the pro-Christian and anti-other-religion stuff is versus how much of it is an invention of people making fun of "red" areas (red is the right-wing one in the US, right? ).

The whole idea of focusing on somebody's religion or worrying about it is very foreign to me.

Something else I've noticed is that Syrian or Lebanese businesses in the US are more likely to be labelled "Mediterranean". Not wrong, but in Canada you tend to just see Lebanese, Syrian, or Middle Eastern.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

On the one hand, I feel like lamenting that Hindus have been removed from the leftist pity list.

On the other hand, I think making it high up on the leftist pity list is a death knell for your community.

Look at how Muslims are faring now that left has put them at the top / near the top of their list of minority groups they pity.

I don't think concepts like Islamophobia has helped the Muslim community at all. It has helped the conservative elites of the Muslim communities. The inability to critically appraise the religion has meant that Muslims have retained more ideas incompatible with contemporary Western society; that Muslim women's issues are ignored because it would be racist to talk about that; that LGBTQ Muslims are ignored because it would be racist to talk about that.

Getting off the pity list is the best thing any community can do. I'm a human first and foremost. I would rather have someone look at me the wrong way than be patronized, pitied, essentialized and infantilized by big ego leftist White man's burden savior types.

It most likely leads to better, happier lives for you and yours.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

the other is fundamentalist Christians who actually care if other people are Christian or not (I'd assume these people would not like former Christians converting to Islam either regardless of skin colour or country of birth!).

I know it exists but it's a totally alien concept to me.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think Islamophobia as a concept is a bit of an American import as well. I don't mean that animus toward Islam is non-existent in Canada, but there are a couple social phenomena south of the border that relate to Muslims that are much less prominent here.

One is the Iraq war, and the other is fundamentalist Christians who actually care if other people are Christian or not (I'd assume these people would not like former Christians converting to Islam either regardless of skin colour or country of birth!). This definitely became a red vs. blue culture war issue. I don't know how common the pro-Christian and anti-other-religion stuff is versus how much of it is an invention of people making fun of "red" areas (red is the right-wing one in the US, right? ).

The whole idea of focusing on somebody's religion or worrying about it is very foreign to me.

Something else I've noticed is that Syrian or Lebanese businesses in the US are more likely to be labelled "Mediterranean". Not wrong, but in Canada you tend to just see Lebanese, Syrian, or Middle Eastern.

It's understandably a much bigger issue (Islam, Islamophobia, etc.) in Europe though, including the UK, given demographics.

I think it's true that very few in Canada care about someone else's religion in the sense of their metaphysics, epistemology, private religious practice, etc. But in many places, especially Asia but elsewhere too, religious identity can function as a 'meta-ethnic' identity.

It's totally likely that many young Muslims in the UK and France do not have strong commitments to specific religious doctrines and practices, but still have a sense of being different in part due to that religious identity / background. Many people will say that they are 'culturally Muslim / Hindu / whatever', and that can inform their politics as well (e.g., voting Labour because they support Palestine & Kashmir).

[Acajack]

From the "us too!" file...

Not sure if this has any legs but it's popped up a few times over the past week from different spheres of my social media friendscape (via friends of friends).

The idea is that if the fact that numbers show a distinct human grouping has less favourable "indicators" is apparently more than sufficient evidence that systemic racism exists, doesn't the fact that francophones in Canada have (somewhat) lower socio-economic indicator stats than anglophones, actually prove that there is systemic racism against francophones in Canada?

This one below isn't a contemporary stat, but I've seen it pop up recently.

I already knew this, of course. Quite telling from a historical perspective.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=958877961239409&set=p.958877961239409&type=3&theater

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

From the "us too!" file...

Not sure if this has any legs but it's popped up a few times over the past week from different spheres of my social media friendscape (via friends of friends).

The idea is that if the fact that numbers show a distinct human grouping has less favourable "indicators" is apparently more than sufficient evidence that systemic racism exists, doesn't the fact that francophones in Canada have (somewhat) lower socio-economic indicator stats than anglophones, actually prove that there is systemic racism against francophones in Canada?

This one below isn't a contemporary stat, but I've seen it pop up recently.

I already knew this, of course. Quite telling from a historical perspective.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=958877961239409&set=p.958877961239409&type=3&theater

It would be some form of classism/ethnic prejudice rather than racism, but yes, I one could well make the argument, at least historically. The fact that the underclass's disadvantages persist even now suggests how long it may take Canada to make a substantial dent in the impact of systemic racism.

[milomilo]

Systemic racism is tautological, I have realised. The fact that any disparity of outcomes is observed means it logically follows that something in the system caused the outcome (even if it was racist inputs caused from something that happened long ago). Thus it is impossible to say that systemic racism doesn't exist, but it also makes the idea fairly meaningless. Thus, as people have pointed out, it is more of a test of faith than anything.

What would be more useful now is not to waste so much time on arguing whether systemic racism exists (it does), but identifying specific policies that are actually effectively racist and figuring out how to fix them in a way that itself isn't racist.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

What would be more useful now is not to waste so much time on arguing whether systemic racism exists (it does), but identifying specific policies that are actually effectively racist and figuring out how to fix them in a way that itself isn't racist.

"Starve the cycle", I call it.

[JHikka]

75% of Canadians believe RCMP has a problem with systemic racism, Nanos Research poll suggests

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics...elieve-rcmp-has-a-problem-with-systemic/

"A strong majority of Canadians believe the RCMP has a problem with systemic racism, but they are divided on whether they have confidence that the force can fix it, according to a new poll conducted by Nanos Research for The Globe and Mail.

The poll, which asked Canadians about their views on systemic racism in the national police force, found that four in 10 Canadians, or 40 per cent, believe the RCMP has a problem and have confidence they can fix it.

...

Last month, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki acknowledged the existence of systemic racism in her organization. She had previously questioned its application to the force in several interviews, including with The Globe and Mail. However, critics including some Indigenous leaders, have asked what the force is doing to address it."