The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And I have family and friends who work in police or emergency health services (emergency rooms or paramedics) and they say that the share of mental health cases they have to deal with has exploded and continues to rise at an alarming rate.

It's pretty well the same thing across Canada. But mental illness is not a new thing. So why has it blown up into such a pernicious and widespread problem across the country over the last 40 years?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know that as early as the 60s and 70s (and maybe even before), the RCMP had auxiliary or special constables from indigenous communities that worked with their regular officers. Though obviously having indigenous people as full-fledged members of the RCMP is the optimal solution, if they are policing those communities.

I agree that this is a good goal, and members of the community in general should feel like they have a say in how their local police operate. For the RCMP in particular this is an issue to worry about since they operate nationally. Iqaluit or Davis Inlet may be different from Fredericton or Kelowna.

However I am not very convinced this will solve the issue of police violence or disparate rates of violence inflicted upon different racial groups. My impression is that, for example, while black people have a higher likelihood of being shot by police in both Canada and the US, the race of the officer doesn't make much difference to the outcome. I think this is because they're all armed and trained similarly and they all end up in the same situations with the same statistical likelihood.

If you look at the stories of police violence you'll see that a lot of police forces around North America are already quite diverse. And a lot of the police chiefs themselves aren't white either. Toronto's police chief who stepped down is black as is the Seattle police chief.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I expect you recognize that your views are as as extreme, impracticable and unlikely to ever win broad support in Canada as the BLM extremists that you despise so much. (I'm not saying that as a bad thing or that it makes you a hypocrite. Just remarking.)

I might agree on some level.


Which is why I avoid progressive politics, if you can't be effective by keeping it simply stupid it is bound to fail IMO.

But don't be mistaken if you believe policing should improve in quality you are gonna have to start attracting better people with better wages. In reality this has created enough animosity between cops and the general left that this damage will never be undone.





That all being said I don't think UBI is fringe it is just something that might take a while to figure out. I think some form of it is inevitable.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's pretty well the same thing across Canada. But mental illness is not a new thing. So why has it blown up into such a pernicious and widespread problem across the country over the last 40 years?

We used to institutionalize many people, wrongly and rightly. About 25-30 years ago, we closed the institutions and dumped them on the streets.

Naturally, many did not take well to that environment and the cops now have to pick up the pieces. Repeatedly.

Also, we're actually talking about the problem now as opposed to sweeping it under the rug.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's pretty well the same thing across Canada. But mental illness is not a new thing. So why has it blown up into such a pernicious and widespread problem across the country over the last 40 years?

I think it was labeled as other issues in the past and probably more hidden by families. If Joe had a nervous breakdown or beat his wife, they probably ignored it the best they could and went about their life to keep up appearances.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's pretty well the same thing across Canada. But mental illness is not a new thing. So why has it blown up into such a pernicious and widespread problem across the country over the last 40 years?

It's always been there but we've arguably stopped treating and dealing with it effectively.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's pretty well the same thing across Canada. But mental illness is not a new thing. So why has it blown up into such a pernicious and widespread problem across the country over the last 40 years?

Erosion of family social structures, introduction of hard drugs, the way in which the welfare state intervenes and gets involved.

Keeping in mind the mental health crisis is way over stated.

It is a small subset of the population that needs hospitalization etc in normal circumstance.

I'd also add that pharmies have made things far worst. You'd be surprised how easy and how prevalent it is to be put on a massive cocktail of rather powerful drugs.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW_zpi2hmI4

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, I am no friend of the idea of "defunding" or abolishing police departments, or tearing down all the penitentiaries like some of the most zealous BLM activists want but:
...
2) - I do think we should move more quickly on establishing aboriginally run police (or peacekeeping) services for native reserves. There is a move in NB to look at this given the two recent incidents in the province. These services should be run to federal standards, and in conjunction with the RCMP, but native policing on reserves should be done by the natives themselves.
...

Originally Posted by Acajack

...
I guess reserves having their own police forces would help but many indigenous people spend part or most of their day off-reserve in much of the country.

Also, when I was a kid I remember stopping at the Habitant Motel and Restaurant in Richibuctou (they had the most amazing salad dressing) and often in the restaurant we'd see cops from the Big Cove Police (from the nearby reserve) having lunch there.
...

FN policing has been growing over the past 30+ years and there are currently roughly 30 FN police organizations across Canada (Ontario has the lions shares).

Additionally, the Federal government has a dedicated program to advance this (with allocated funds) in other FN's - perhaps it should be increased and accelerated, however like most things, you can't snap your fingers and have this overnight.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

But don't be mistaken if you believe policing should improve in quality you are gonna have to start attracting better people with better wages. In reality this has created enough animosity between cops and the general left that this damage will never be undone.

I agree with this (generally, anyway). I would just add that, in my view, the quality of policing can also be improved in other ways as well (changes in policy, changes in training, etc.). Ideally, reform efforts should use a variety of these potential avenues.

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

That all being said I don't think UBI is fringe it is just something that might take a while to figure out. I think some form of it is inevitable.

I also don't think UBI is a fringe idea. However, the idea that we can't have any immigration if there is a UBI is a pretty fringe idea.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, there goes the "famous five" monument on Parliament Hill.........

And Tommy Douglas ... the greatest Canadian.

While I don't think anyone is equating eugenics and racism (both equally unacceptable through a modern lens), it does highlight the challenge when we do look at things exclusively through a modern lens. Historical actions, behaviours, conditions need to be considered from both a modern perspective as well as the historical context. This topic has been written on extensively by many academics, so I have nothing more to add other than it is concerning when people exclusively consider actions from a "today perspective".

It is not inconceivable that in 50 years humanity will be exclusively vegan and individuals such as Nelson Mandela would be rejected as "heathens who feasted on the flesh of dead animals." **



** Please I am not trying to down play issues wrt racism and discrimination, but just to highlight that things will change in the future and today's morals may not always remain the same.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Historical actions, behaviours, conditions need to be considered from both a modern perspective as well as the historical context.

Sometimes people present this effect as if people in the past were dumber but that's not a good way to think about history. Often the entire environment changes, so a belief or decision that seemed rational in one period ended up looking bizarre in another period.

The meat eating and veganism example is a good one. We have mediocre vegan food options today. In the future they might be indistinguishable from or superior to a diet that includes animal products. In the past, people might not have been able to survive without eating animals. It is likely to be the same with driving a gas-powered vehicle in 1970 vs. 2020 vs. 2070. It's not just that we become "enlightened"; our options also change.

I am doubtful that a nuanced view of a figure like Cornwallis will catch on but in his days he was in charge of a tenuous outpost caught in the middle of a war between two great European powers. It took weeks to travel around the territory that he controlled on paper, and some indigenous groups sided with him while others sided with French authorities. It's not really possible to understand his decisions from a 20th or 21st century perspective.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I also don't think UBI is a fringe idea. However, the idea that we can't have any immigration if there is a UBI is a pretty fringe idea.

Sure as I said elsewhere I'm not automatically against immigration, however I am strongly against importing more laborers. It seems about as morally corrupt as you can get in a democracy.

[Acajack]

Scattered in the woods here and there are surprising numbers of abandoned buildings that were once "insane asylums".

I am old enough to kinda remember the period when opinions were rapidly changing about them. Transitioning from "it's for their own good" to "it's an inhumane place, like a prison for the mentally ill even if they've done no wrong".

Popular culture also played a role in this evolution, if you think of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or The Logical Song by Supertramp.

While it is probably true that in the past lots of people were institutionalized by force for no good reason, the pendulum has IMO swung back way too far the other way.

I am not sure that many of the people I see on the streets these days are better off than they would have been in an "insane asylum", even if it was insultingly dubbed the "funny farm".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While it is probably true that in the past lots of people were institutionalized by force for no good reason, the pendulum has IMO swung back way too far the other way.

One big change is that antipsychotics and other drugs were developed. But they don't work or aren't pleasant for everybody and sometimes people don't take their medication.

This is another good example of how things change and how it can be hard to judge decisions made in the past. There's a class of mentally ill people today who can take pills and live fairly normal lives. In 1920 they would have been candidates for lobotomies or imprisonment in an insane asylum, with the alternatives being a high probability of suicide or violent outbursts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

One big change is that antipsychotics and other drugs were developed. But they don't work or aren't pleasant for everybody and sometimes people don't take their medication.

This is another good example of how things change and how it can be hard to judge decisions made in the past. There's a class of mentally ill people today who can take pills and live fairly normal lives. In 1920 they would have been candidates for lobotomies or imprisonment in an insane asylum, with the alternatives being a high probability of suicide or violent outbursts.

A lot of these institutions also saw often horrific abuses (physical, sexual, psychological) of residents. This was also a big factor in the public opinion shift that led to their elimination.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Erosion of family social structures, introduction of hard drugs, the way in which the welfare state intervenes and gets involved.

Keeping in mind the mental health crisis is way over stated.

It is a small subset of the population that needs hospitalization etc in normal circumstance.

I'd also add that pharmies have made things far worst. You'd be surprised how easy and how prevalent it is to be put on a massive cocktail of rather powerful drugs.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW_zpi2hmI4

Look at Pruitt-Igoe in St. Louis as a planning example. Absolute tragedy by public officials and their institutional racism. 50-60 years later and you still see the effects. Don't question that though... STOP. QUESTIONING. THINGS.

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Sure as I said elsewhere I'm not automatically against immigration, however I am strongly against importing more laborers. It seems about as morally corrupt as you can get in a democracy.

Don't worry, the fauxgressives can have their cake and eat it too yeah?

[SpongeG]

US-born woman tells two BC residents to "go back where you came from" (VIDEO)
Eric Zimmer | Jun 29 2020

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/racist-w...qD4j6nY0n23MmltmqnNJ4Jext9LANuNVjOudphlA

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A lot of these institutions also saw often horrific abuses (physical, sexual, psychological) of residents. This was also a big factor in the public opinion shift that led to their elimination.

I know people who work in care homes for the mentally ill. They have awful stories (along the lines of "see these teeth? they're all fake because a resident decided to punch them out one day; we're still not allowed to restrain him because of regulations and he bites us every so often").

I am sure there is horrific abuse. We must accept both that and the difficult context. Such environments chase away good workers with career alternatives and impose constraints on what can and can't be done humanely. There's often risk and the alternatives are not always good.

I was reading a bit more about he Regis Korchinski-Paquet case. It looks like the family's lawyer walked back the claims that the police had anything to do with her death. It sounds like she had barricaded herself in a room and died while trying to jump between balconies of her highrise apartment (a much more plausible story than police pushing her off her balcony while her family was in the apartment). I am not sure if that's been corroborated or not yet. I wonder how much pressure this case put on Mark Saunders, Toronto's former police chief. It just happened to follow on the heels of George Floyd.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

US-born woman tells two BC residents to "go back where you came from" (VIDEO)
Eric Zimmer | Jun 29 2020

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/racist-w...qD4j6nY0n23MmltmqnNJ4Jext9LANuNVjOudphlA

She even made the Karen Going Wild list, right next to Karen and Ken drawing their guns on BLM protestors walking by their house:

https://www.instagram.com/karensgoingwilds/?hl=en

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by someone123

There's a class of mentally ill people today who can take pills and live fairly normal lives. In 1920 they would have been candidates for lobotomies or imprisonment in an insane asylum, with the alternatives being a high probability of suicide or violent outbursts.

My view is it is a lot harder in modern times than you would think. The perpetual free fall of being around ever declining social structures gets worst and worst as you age.

When you're 18 you hang out with the kids from your block. When you're 22 you hand out with the stoners in your college. By the time you're 30 you end up drifting into an abyss of awful people, video games, pharmies etc.

Normies really have a hard time appreciating what it means to be in a declining social circle. So much of our social inequality is about getting stuck around shitty people and tolerating their shittyness compounding with your shittyness.

The real inequality in our society can be measured in the strength of your social structures. When you're surrounded by good people it is very easy to claim you live in a relative utopia and when you are surrounded by shit heads you end up living in a total dystopia. You are who you know, and when you have mental illness not a lot of people want to know you.