The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

So Nelly McClung is stricken form the history books?


Didn't fucking think so.



Nelly McClung Canada's great feminist was fucking pro eugenics.

And this wasn't in 1860 but less than a century ago, when we were more or less modern in terms of that type of thing.

Holy fuck when in the hell did I suggest removing people from history? I never even came close to insinuating that. The opposite actually, just like what you just said... Nelly Mclung’s place in history books needs to be corrected to not just being a “champion” of female suffrage but also being pro-eugenics, supporting a movement that led to the involuntary sterilization of over 2,700 indigenous women in Alberta alone between 1920 and 1975. Holy Christ dude. Read what I write before flipping your lid about nothing.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't agree with everything, but you gave me lots of food for thought, that's all.

And don't you have your hands full with LakeLocker, anyway?

Not really, clearly

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by chadillaccc

holy fuck When in the hell did i suggest removing people from history? I never even came close to insinuating that. The opposite actually, just like what you just said... Nelly mclung’s place in history books needs to be corrected to not just being a “champion” of female suffrage but also being pro-eugenics, supporting a movement that led to the involuntary sterilization of over 2,700 indigenous women in alberta alone between 1920 and 1975. Holy christ dude. Read what i write before flipping your lid about nothing.




Not really, clearly

lol

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

For the last five years we have been tut-tutting about how the American right has become unhinged... now it appears the left is joining in the fun. This won't end well.

The optimistic view is that a new political party (or an existing party) realigns their views to exclude the extreme ends.

The extreme ends are amplified by media, because they're the most entertaining. Same with social media.

The reasonable proposals will likely be taken up in some way or form. There's a large cohort of people who aren't very politically active, but don't condone what currently happens with respect to policing. They don't really get heard until election time though.

The Silent Majority has more sway in US politics than many people figure right now. They're the same people who put Obama in office twice, so I'd not underestimate them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, I am no friend of the idea of "defunding" or abolishing police departments, or tearing down all the penitentiaries like some of the most zealous BLM activists want but:

1) - I do think we should re-evaluate the mandate of the police being the ones to carry out "wellness checks." This shouldn't be their responsibility in most circumstances. This should be done by a rapid response social services team (with police back-up if necessary).
2) - I do think we should move more quickly on establishing aboriginally run police (or peacekeeping) services for native reserves. There is a move in NB to look at this given the two recent incidents in the province. These services should be run to federal standards, and in conjunction with the RCMP, but native policing on reserves should be done by the natives themselves.
3) - Prisons can't be abolished, but we should make a concerted effort to limit incarceration only to those individuals who are a true danger to society. We could probably easily close 50-60% of prisons in Canada by judicious use of mandatory community based rehabilitation and education programs for offenders, restitution programs and community service.
4) - We should revisit the errors we made back in the 70s when a lot of the psychiatric hospitals and institutions in the country were closed. They should never be a first line option in treatment of disturbed individuals, but, by the same token, there will always be an underclass in society who just won't be able to cope or look after themselves. There people often turn to petty crime. Throwing these people into jail is inhumane, and only exposes them to more hard core criminal elements. If people truly cannot be trained to look after themselves in the community, then they should be humanely institutionalized.
5) - Most drug abuse offences should be decriminalized (not trafficking, obviously), and these individuals instead be treated with compassion, treatment programs, and, if necessary, government supplied safe drugs and narcotics for maintenance. This is the most humane thing to do, and would automatically eliminate a lot of petty crime as addicts would not have to steal to feed their habits.
6) - Other offences could be decriminalized too, with the offenders given fines rather than a criminal record and/or jail time. For example, a first time drunk driving charge (with no property damage, injury or loss of life) could be handled with a stiff fine and a warning that if it happens again, they will be going to jail. The perpetrator thus escapes a criminal record, which could affect his employability.

All of these changes could be accomplished without having to abolish police services or radically changing the justice system. Police have a very important and stressful job in our society providing us all with order and security. They deserve our respect and thanks. Lets all work together and try to find a solution.

At the risk of making Chad jealous I'd say this is a sensible post.

I would mention on the matter of indigenous policing that both the recent deaths in NB took place outside of indigenous communities. So you wouldn't have had an indigenous police force dealing with those individuals anyway. Chantel Moore lived in an apartment in downtown Edmundston.

I guess reserves having their own police forces would help but many indigenous people spend part or most of their day off-reserve in much of the country.

Also, when I was a kid I remember stopping at the Habitant Motel and Restaurant in Richibuctou (they had the most amazing salad dressing) and often in the restaurant we'd see cops from the Big Cove Police (from the nearby reserve) having lunch there.

I don't think that community has its own police force anymore. There is an RCMP detachment in the community proper.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, I am no friend of the idea of "defunding" or abolishing police departments, or tearing down all the penitentiaries like some of the most zealous BLM activists want but:

1) - I do think we should re-evaluate the mandate of the police being the ones to carry out "wellness checks." This shouldn't be their responsibility in most circumstances. This should be done by a rapid response social services team (with police back-up if necessary).
2) - I do think we should move more quickly on establishing aboriginally run police (or peacekeeping) services for native reserves. There is a move in NB to look at this given the two recent incidents in the province. These services should be run to federal standards, and in conjunction with the RCMP, but native policing on reserves should be done by the natives themselves.
3) - Prisons can't be abolished, but we should make a concerted effort to limit incarceration only to those individuals who are a true danger to society. We could probably easily close 50-60% of prisons in Canada by judicious use of mandatory community based rehabilitation and education programs for offenders, restitution programs and community service.
4) - We should revisit the errors we made back in the 70s when a lot of the psychiatric hospitals and institutions in the country were closed. They should never be a first line option in treatment of disturbed individuals, but, by the same token, there will always be an underclass in society who just won't be able to cope or look after themselves. There people often turn to petty crime. Throwing these people into jail is inhumane, and only exposes them to more hard core criminal elements. If people truly cannot be trained to look after themselves in the community, then they should be humanely institutionalized.
5) - Most drug abuse offences should be decriminalized (not trafficking, obviously), and these individuals instead be treated with compassion, treatment programs, and, if necessary, government supplied safe drugs and narcotics for maintenance. This is the most humane thing to do, and would automatically eliminate a lot of petty crime as addicts would not have to steal to feed their habits.
6) - Other offences could be decriminalized too, with the offenders given fines rather than a criminal record and/or jail time. For example, a first time drunk driving charge (with no property damage, injury or loss of life) could be handled with a stiff fine and a warning that if it happens again, they will be going to jail. The perpetrator thus escapes a criminal record, which could affect his employability.

All of these changes could be accomplished without having to abolish police services or radically changing the justice system. Police have a very important and stressful job in our society providing us all with order and security. They deserve our respect and thanks. Lets all work together and try to find a solution.

I was listening to several activists and mental health experts on these issues. On paper, it sounds so very easy to defund the police and transfer that money to mental health crisis response teams, better schooling, after school programs etc etc.
My question is this; where are we going to get those mental health experts from? From what I understand we are currently short staffed in all fields of health not just mental health. To have a 24/7 mental health crisis response team you'll likely need 3 pers for each position. Now that is just for one rotation, to allow for a proper work/life balance, continuation training and sick days you'll need at minimum 2 pers for each position. So now you're up to 6 pers/pos. In the city of the size of Toronto how many teams would you require (i have really no idea) but I'm sure you would have a good chance of having enough people for the amount of teams you'd require.
But the farther you get from the urban core, the less you have the human resources to fill out these teams. Then you get on the remote reserves, that provides a whole new set of HR issues.
Not saying these questions are insurmountable but the decision makers have to realize that just switching funding from police to other support services without further funding to recruiting, training, and supporting these services they may doom their efforts in the long run.
As far as I can tell being a mental health professional is a very exhausting profession. I have a feeling that their empathy is both blessing and a curse and if they don't have the proper support they can also burn out very fast.

[Chadillaccc]

Dink

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Holy fuck when in the hell did I suggest removing people from history? I never even came close to insinuating that. The opposite actually, just like what you just said... Nelly Mclung’s place in history books needs to be corrected to not just being a “champion” of female suffrage but also being pro-eugenics, supporting a movement that led to the involuntary sterilization of over 2,700 indigenous women in Alberta alone between 1920 and 1975. Holy Christ dude. Read what I write before flipping your lid about nothing.




Not really, clearly

So would we tear her statute down?

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At the risk of making Chad jealous I'd say this is a sensible post.

I would mention on the matter of indigenous policing that both the recent deaths in NB took place outside of indigenous communities. So you wouldn't have had an indigenous police force dealing with those individuals anyway. Chantel Moore lived in an apartment in downtown Edmundston.

I guess reserves having their own police forces would help but many indigenous people spend part or most of their day off-reserve in much of the country.

Also, when I was a kid I remember stopping at the Habitant Motel and Restaurant in Richibuctou (they had the most amazing salad dressing) and often in the restaurant we'd see cops from the Big Cove Police (from the nearby reserve) having lunch there.

I don't think that community has its own police force anymore. There is an RCMP detachment in the community proper.

This is something that has been tried in a few reserves with some success. The difficulty in many remote areas is getting trained officers to work and stay in their communities. I work primarily in remote areas of the North, and have seen this with Paramedics, Peace officers, nurses (really you name it). Often people are sent for training and the training is fully funded, and folks are paid to go to school. Once they are done they often look at their options and decide that it may not be best for their family to remain in said remote location, and they move out. The community is none the better off. That is why RCMP and medical workers (such as myself) are the backbones of many of the essential services across Canada. One health authority I know of has had a program for 10 years that would fully fund nurse education. In that time only one has remained in the area. I assume policing would be similar.

I would like to see the RCMP and municipal police forces recruit more on reserves, though I think this does happen a fair amount already. An even more diverse workforce would be preferable over hundreds of new small police forces.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

The far bigger issue is the erosion of jobs for people's with disagreeable temperaments.

If you are disagreeable and your IQ is somewhat low the odds are very high that you'll end up in legal trouble, or have an extremely difficult time working in the service industry.

Immigrants create an excess of labor and it decreases the value of hiring people with criminal records.

If it weren't for illegals in the US black Americans would be far better off.

Just the same natives would be integrated into our society by very simple economic forces. But when you immigrate to replace what can you do?

Unironically I think we need to expand policing to dramatic extremes as a way of creating employment and security.

The private security industry is diverting many people destine for legal troubles/unemployment.

Sounds like you want to live in some dystopian hell hole.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sounds like you want to live in some dystopian hell hole.

Because I don't want there to be an oversupply of labor?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I was listening to several activists and mental health experts on these issues. On paper, it sounds so very easy to defund the police and transfer that money to mental health crisis response teams, better schooling, after school programs etc etc.
My question is this; where are we going to get those mental health experts from? From what I understand we are currently short staffed in all fields of health not just mental health. To have a 24/7 mental health crisis response team you'll likely need 3 pers for each position. Now that is just for one rotation, to allow for a proper work/life balance, continuation training and sick days you'll need at minimum 2 pers for each position. So now you're up to 6 pers/pos. In the city of the size of Toronto how many teams would you require (i have really no idea) but I'm sure you would have a good chance of having enough people for the amount of teams you'd require.
But the farther you get from the urban core, the less you have the human resources to fill out these teams. Then you get on the remote reserves, that provides a whole new set of HR issues.
Not saying these questions are insurmountable but the decision makers have to realize that just switching funding from police to other support services without further funding to recruiting, training, and supporting these services they may doom their efforts in the long run.
As far as I can tell being a mental health professional is a very exhausting profession. I have a feeling that their empathy is both blessing and a curse and if they don't have the proper support they can also burn out very fast.

Very good questions, and of course I don't have all the answers.

Any change of course would have to be gradual, and perhaps would start with having a mental health resource person who would be available to ride along during a wellness check. That wouldn't be quite so labour intensive.

Your points about mental health services in rural areas are also very well taken, and it may not be able to deploy any such new service absolutely everywhere within the country. Unfortunately, in some small towns, the only people available to provide this service will likely reman the police. Hopefully in such situations, the police will receive additional training to provide the service.

This is similar to the idea of a "GP-anaesthetist" for example. In some small hospitals, they can't attract a full fledged anesthesiologist to support the local hospital, so a GP is chosen for six months of additional training to provide the service. They can handle about 95% of the cases, and are much better than nothing.........

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

This is something that has been tried in a few reserves with some success. The difficulty in many remote areas is getting trained officers to work and stay in their communities. I work primarily in remote areas of the North, and have seen this with Paramedics, Peace officers, nurses (really you name it). Often people are sent for training and the training is fully funded, and folks are paid to go to school. Once they are done they often look at their options and decide that it may not be best for their family to remain in said remote location, and they move out. The community is none the better off. That is why RCMP and medical workers (such as myself) are the backbones of many of the essential services across Canada. One health authority I know of has had a program for 10 years that would fully fund nurse education. In that time only one has remained in the area. I assume policing would be similar.

I would like to see the RCMP and municipal police forces recruit more on reserves, though I think this does happen a fair amount already. An even more diverse workforce would be preferable over hundreds of new small police forces.

I absolutely agree about the challenges facing the northern reserves.

I can understand about trained nurses leaving for better opportunities, but wouldn't native constables actually chosen from within their communities want to stay there?

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I absolutely agree about the challenges facing the northern reserves.

I can understand about trained nurses leaving for better opportunities, but wouldn't native constables actually chosen from within their communities want to stay there?

Better opportunities? Better pay? Work in a City that has a large native population and make a difference?

Lots of reasons that are the same for people around the world.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Because I don't want there to be an oversupply of labor?

And you favor making these "angry, unskilled" people into police?

Why not explore basic income?

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Better opportunities? Better pay? Work in a City that has a large native population and make a difference?

Lots of reasons that are the same for people around the world.

There could be incentives for the indigenous constables to stay in their communities. I know the RCMP gets extra pay while up in the north (dated one for two years in Van).

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

And you favor making these "angry, unskilled" people into police?

Why not explore basic income?

Some sort of law enforcement not necessarily police.

I'd be for breaking law enforcement into roles more like the military.

With different corps for different tasks, with a distinction made between officers and enlisted based on time in training and education.

I'm a big fan of universal basic income, if it is actually done as a universal tax rebate for all(including the rich), and is done as a way of cutting a large number of government programs.

That won't solve the issue of idle hands however.

And you can't have immigration and a UBI it is just dumb.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Some sort of law enforcement not necessarily police.

I'd be for breaking law enforcement into roles more like the military.

With different corps for different tasks, with a distinction made between officers and enlisted based on time in training and education.

I'm a big fan of universal basic income, if it is actually done as a universal tax rebate for all(including the rich), and is done as a way of cutting a large number of government programs.

That won't solve the issue of idle hands however.

And you can't have immigration and a UBI it is just dumb.

I expect you recognize that your views are as as extreme, impracticable and unlikely to ever win broad support in Canada as the BLM extremists that you despise so much. (I'm not saying that as a bad thing or that it makes you a hypocrite. Just remarking.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Very good questions, and of course I don't have all the answers.

Any change of course would have to be gradual, and perhaps would start with having a mental health resource person who would be available to ride along during a wellness check. That wouldn't be quite so labour intensive.

Your points about mental health services in rural areas are also very well taken, and it may not be able to deploy any such new service absolutely everywhere within the country. Unfortunately, in some small towns, the only people available to provide this service will likely reman the police. Hopefully in such situations, the police will receive additional training to provide the service.
..

"Mental health" writ large is actually a huge problem in western societies in general. So many social problems are related to it (crime, violence, poverty, homelessness, unemployment, etc.) that it boggles the mind.

As has been stated, the defunding (that word) and de-instutionalization that have plagued the sector for several decades now are fast catching up to us, and my fear is that things are only going to get worse.

The last time I went to a hospital emergency room with a member of my family here, the triage nurse said the wait time would be very long (nothing unusual there TBQH) due to them being swamped by mental health cases brought in by cops and ambulances. I gather they have a certain degree of priority when they are a danger to themselves or others.

And I have family and friends who work in police or emergency health services (emergency rooms or paramedics) and they say that the share of mental health cases they have to deal with has exploded and continues to rise at an alarming rate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I would like to see the RCMP and municipal police forces recruit more on reserves, though I think this does happen a fair amount already. An even more diverse workforce would be preferable over hundreds of new small police forces.

I suppose than in indigenous communities like Big Cove* NB (which I think now has an indigenous name, but can't remember it) where an RCMP detachment on reserve land, that many if not most of the officers are indigenous and from the community.

I know that as early as the 60s and 70s (and maybe even before), the RCMP had auxiliary or special constables from indigenous communities that worked with their regular officers. Though obviously having indigenous people as full-fledged members of the RCMP is the optimal solution, if they are policing those communities.

EDIT: *The community is now known as Elsipogtog.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by savevp

The new woke left aren't interested in attempting to solve anything. It's all about scoring victim points or, in their absence, virtue points to be gawped at in their social media circles. The above whitewashing of selected non-European instances of slavery is but a particularly repugnant example. The Prime Minister taking a knee with protestors rather than enacting the legislation they demand is another. There are positive, constructive approaches to Canadian progressivism that are being discarded because the woke left believe compulsive self-flagellation and acknowledgments of privelege absolve them of the guilt they're so quick to foist on others; "white people are the problem, but not me because I know my privelege."

You choose this interpretation because it allows you to use a very broad brush to discredit an entire movement.

Everyone is racist. We are all the problem. White people have more power to change that because they have been invested with more power over generations in a white supremacist society that was designed to benefit them at the expense of others.

White people who refuse to recognize that are a bigger problem, naturally.