The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Luckily, instead of breaking out her windows as everyone online was suggesting, people protested outside her house, pinned signs to it, wrote chalk messages on the sidewalk, etc. She took her signs down and, of course, “wasn’t trying to be discriminatory” lol.

Turns out the real world isn't like facebook.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Turns out the real world isn't like facebook.

More like the specific social climate of St John's than the real world writ large.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You know I think you post in good faith and are knowledgeable, so this is not an attack.

But I really do get the impression that your posts about this are examples of what I was talking about: "sure they did it too, but they weren't as bad..."

I am mostly bringing this up because it doesn't seem like we are in the "benefit of the doubt" era. For example, in terms of minority rights and human rights in general, the "West" (including the U.S.) leads the world. But we're told that the West must still improve significantly. And I actually agree with that.

But I don't see why this would not apply to everyone, both for our contemporary era and the way we interpret history.

You're right man. Everyone can do better. Black people are not beyond criticism in this cultural revolution, and most of them are well aware of that. The west does of course lead the world in minority rights, but that in itself means we have the current social ability to do better. Removing statues of monstrous pieces of shit is a good start. Re-evaluating community policing and incorporating greater mental health and community services into the policing mix is the goal.

The fact is that police have some of the highest rates of drug abuse, domestic violence, depression, suicide, and alcoholism of any profession, so the re-evaluation of the policing model is in the best interest of everyone. Their mandate is far too wide, and no person can be trained to adequately respond to many of the situations they're tasked with. The reality is that this revolution/rebellion/whatever you want to call it will not end until that one goal is achieved. Black people and minorities in general have just taken the violence for too long, and have heard the horrors from their parents, grand parents, great grand parents, and everyone knows now that it will never stop until major changes are made at the systemic level.

I agree to an extent about needing to look at the past through an ethnographic perspective. However, that doesn't mean we can't correct these figures places in the history books, and start including the voices of the brutalized peoples in those books (just like we do when learning about the enslaved Jews building the pyramids and gladiators fighting in Roman arenas in ancient history class). The fact that Canadian (and American) history is so glorified to the side of the colonizers is... well reprehensible to say the least in this day and age... but also very easy to correct. I was pretty shocked when my niece told me they never taught her anything about residential schools or literally any of the atrocities we committed against natives (she's in Grade 9 advanced classes in Ontario). Regardless, we know now that genocide was attempted, and when biological genocide didn't work, both countries committed cultural genocide on the indigenous (beating/raping the culture out of their children in residential schools). Hell, even Calgary is demolishing the Fort Calgary Museum to rebuild it double the size to include the indigenous side of the colonization story. Correcting history is easy now that historians and journalists are listening to the voices of the marginalized.

The removal of monuments to the Confederacy is a no brainer so we don't even need to go there. However with monuments like Washington is where the gray area begins, and for monuments to Lincoln and Grant, that gets even tougher and will require years of debate on the issue, and will likely result in the preservation of those monuments. The fact is though, these conversations taking place at the forefront now have needed to be had for decades. It's a good thing, regardless of the outcome.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

You're right man. Everyone can do better. Black people are not beyond criticism in this cultural revolution, and most of them are well aware of that. The west does of course lead the world in minority rights, but that in itself means we have the current social ability to do better. Removing statues of monstrous pieces of shit is a good start. Re-evaluating community policing and incorporating greater mental health and community services into the policing mix is the goal.

The fact is that police have some of the highest rates of drug abuse, domestic violence, depression, suicide, and alcoholism of any profession, so the re-evaluation of the policing model is in the best interest of everyone. Their mandate is far too wide, and no person can be trained to adequately respond to many of the situations they're tasked with. The reality is that this revolution/rebellion/whatever you want to call it will not end until that one goal is achieved. Black people and minorities in general have just taken the violence for too long, and have heard the horrors from their parents, grand parents, great grand parents, and everyone knows now that it will never stop until major changes are made at the systemic level.

I agree to an extent about needing to look at the past through an ethnographic perspective. However, that doesn't mean we can't correct these figures places in the history books, and start including the voices of the brutalized peoples in those books (just like we do when learning about the enslaved Jews building the pyramids and gladiators fighting in Roman arenas in ancient history class). The fact that Canadian (and American) history is so glorified to the side of the colonizers is... well reprehensible to say the least in this day and age... but also very easy to correct. I was pretty shocked when my niece told me they never taught her anything about residential schools or literally any of the atrocities we committed against natives (she's in Grade 9 advanced classes in Ontario). Regardless, we know now that genocide was attempted, and when biological genocide didn't work, both countries committed cultural genocide on the indigenous (beating/raping the culture out of their children in residential schools). Hell, even Calgary is demolishing the Fort Calgary Museum to rebuild it double the size to include the indigenous side of the colonization story. Correcting history is easy now that historians and journalists are listening to the voices of the marginalized.

The removal of monuments to the Confederacy is a no brainer so we don't even need to go there. However with monuments like Washington is where the gray area begins, and for monuments to Lincoln and Grant, that gets even tougher and will require years of debate on the issue, and will likely result in the preservation of those monuments. The fact is though, these conversations taking place at the forefront now have needed to be had for decades. It's a good thing, regardless of the outcome.

Sensible post.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeling-in-the-church-of-social-justice/

Great article

Thanks for sharing, that was very interesting.

So is this McWhorter fellow decried as a racist? Or at the very least nostalgic for a return to 1962 (or 1860)?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

//reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeling-in-the-church-of-social-justice/"]https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeling-in-the-church-of-social-justice/

"church of social justice"

"new religion"

BTW, not to gloat but I actually predicted the rise of this "new religion" of extreme progressivism on here about three years ago!

[esquire]

^ Good article.

It isn't hard to envision a scenario playing out where both sides of the American culture war dig in their heels and adopt more extreme stances as tensions escalate. And the results won't be pretty.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by savevp

The new woke left aren't interested in attempting to solve anything. It's all about scoring victim points or, in their absence, virtue points to be gawped at in their social media circles. The above whitewashing of selected non-European instances of slavery is but a particularly repugnant example. The Prime Minister taking a knee with protestors rather than enacting the legislation they demand is another. There are positive, constructive approaches to Canadian progressivism that are being discarded because the woke left believe compulsive self-flagellation and acknowledgments of privelege absolve them of the guilt they're so quick to foist on others; "white people are the problem, but not me because I know my privelege."

It's all about filling the gap created by atheism. People seem to be conveniently forgetting that this whole woke left was an offshoot of the Atheist+ movement.

It's hilarious they've discarded all the sensible aspects of religion and amped up the stupid.


The fact these people's are engaging in witch hunts, guilt trips, public confessions of guilt etc should be absolutely no surprise to anyone that has followed much history. It is starting to turn into a bad monty python skit.


FYI I love reminding people that the English word for slave came from Slav. As in the Ottoman Turks were so obsessed with abducting Bulgarians, Ukrainians etc that they merged the word for slav and slave.


It also isn't remotely ironic that the same westerners who ignore this history are the same ones who ignore how their socialistic horseshit caused millions upon millions of ethnic Slavs to go through absolute hell just a generation ago.

These people are absolute scum, and I'm tired of being apologetic for people who never bothered to open a history book.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

You're right man. Everyone can do better. Black people are not beyond criticism in this cultural revolution, and most of them are well aware of that. The west does of course lead the world in minority rights, but that in itself means we have the current social ability to do better. Removing statues of monstrous pieces of shit is a good start. Re-evaluating community policing and incorporating greater mental health and community services into the policing mix is the goal.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

The fact is that police have some of the highest rates of drug abuse, domestic violence, depression, suicide, and alcoholism of any profession, so the re-evaluation of the policing model is in the best interest of everyone. Their mandate is far too wide, and no person can be trained to adequately respond to many of the situations they're tasked with. The reality is that this revolution/rebellion/whatever you want to call it will not end until that one goal is achieved. Black people and minorities in general have just taken the violence for too long, and have heard the horrors from their parents, grand parents, great grand parents, and everyone knows now that it will never stop until major changes are made at the systemic level.

Well you have two problems A) Police Unions B) The fact that many people refuse to offer proper funding to cops.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I agree to an extent about needing to look at the past through an ethnographic perspective. However, that doesn't mean we can't correct these figures places in the history books, and start including the voices of the brutalized peoples in those books (just like we do when learning about the enslaved Jews building the pyramids and gladiators fighting in Roman arenas in ancient history class). The fact that Canadian (and American) history is so glorified to the side of the colonizers is... well reprehensible to say the least in this day and age... but also very easy to correct. I was pretty shocked when my niece told me they never taught her anything about residential schools or literally any of the atrocities we committed against natives (she's in Grade 9 advanced classes in Ontario). Regardless, we know now that genocide was attempted, and when biological genocide didn't work, both countries committed cultural genocide on the indigenous (beating/raping the culture out of their children in residential schools). Hell, even Calgary is demolishing the Fort Calgary Museum to rebuild it double the size to include the indigenous side of the colonization story. Correcting history is easy now that historians and journalists are listening to the voices of the marginalized.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

The removal of monuments to the Confederacy is a no brainer so we don't even need to go there. However with monuments like Washington is where the gray area begins, and for monuments to Lincoln and Grant, that gets even tougher and will require years of debate on the issue, and will likely result in the preservation of those monuments. The fact is though, these conversations taking place at the forefront now have needed to be had for decades. It's a good thing, regardless of the outcome.

This is just stupid, you're opening the door to social marxist drivel.

You're opening the door to the rewriting of history for political gain.

There is absolutely no framework for what you're talking about, this is gonna be a game of delete the person of political convenience.

History isn't propaganda rewriting it isn't an option.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Good article.

It isn't hard to envision a scenario playing out where both sides of the American culture war dig in their heels and adopt more extreme stances as tensions escalate. And the results won't be pretty.

My money is on the eventual adoption of some of the more sensible, less extreme aspects of the BLM platform that are palatable to the majority of the population.

But it will be a messy, long and winding road getting there.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My money is on the eventual adoption of some of the more sensible, less extreme aspects of the BLM platform that are palatable to the majority of the population.

But it will be a messy, long and winding road getting there.

And what's palatable to the majority will expand, due to the current activism. That's how it works. In fact, it has probably worked, or begun to work, already, it's just a matter of seeing how far the energy takes it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And what's palatable to the majority will expand, due to the current activism. That's how it works. In fact, it has probably worked, or begun to work, already, it's just a matter of seeing how far the energy takes it.

Correct.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My money is on the eventual adoption of some of the more sensible, less extreme aspects of the BLM platform that are palatable to the majority of the population.

But it will be a messy, long and winding road getting there.

You are an optimist, that's all I can say.

It is interesting that we are in this situation where there is no pushback for even the most extreme or absurd BLM claims. Also, in that article it was interesting to see BLM leaders at some rally criticizing white people engaging in self-flagellation. But dollars to donuts that will be a common practice in a year's time at those types of events because where the trendlines are pointing.

For the last five years we have been tut-tutting about how the American right has become unhinged... now it appears the left is joining in the fun. This won't end well.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sensible post.

Lmao ummm... well thanks for the approval? I'm a really smart person, just usually unable to articulate the things I'm trying to say because of a mentally devastating combination of ADHD, GAD, and PTSD... so yeah.

Didn't really post that for approval though. So, any thoughts on it?

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

This is just stupid, you're opening the door to social marxist drivel.

You're opening the door to the rewriting of history for political gain.

There is absolutely no framework for what you're talking about, this is gonna be a game of delete the person of political convenience.

History isn't propaganda rewriting it isn't an option.

Haha well it's actually not stupid, and not really complicated either. It only involves adding in the reality of what actually happened and including the stories of the people who were subjugated and/or nearly wiped out through those practices. There's no framework because we've never realized how wrong we were about something so relatively contemporary before. Now we have the knowledge, so it's time to create the framework and do it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My money is on the eventual adoption of some of the more sensible, less extreme aspects of the BLM platform that are palatable to the majority of the population.

But it will be a messy, long and winding road getting there.

Well, I am no friend of the idea of "defunding" or abolishing police departments, or tearing down all the penitentiaries like some of the most zealous BLM activists want but:

1) - I do think we should re-evaluate the mandate of the police being the ones to carry out "wellness checks." This shouldn't be their responsibility in most circumstances. This should be done by a rapid response social services team (with police back-up if necessary).
2) - I do think we should move more quickly on establishing aboriginally run police (or peacekeeping) services for native reserves. There is a move in NB to look at this given the two recent incidents in the province. These services should be run to federal standards, and in conjunction with the RCMP, but native policing on reserves should be done by the natives themselves.
3) - Prisons can't be abolished, but we should make a concerted effort to limit incarceration only to those individuals who are a true danger to society. We could probably easily close 50-60% of prisons in Canada by judicious use of mandatory community based rehabilitation and education programs for offenders, restitution programs and community service.
4) - We should revisit the errors we made back in the 70s when a lot of the psychiatric hospitals and institutions in the country were closed. They should never be a first line option in treatment of disturbed individuals, but, by the same token, there will always be an underclass in society who just won't be able to cope or look after themselves. There people often turn to petty crime. Throwing these people into jail is inhumane, and only exposes them to more hard core criminal elements. If people truly cannot be trained to look after themselves in the community, then they should be humanely institutionalized.
5) - Most drug abuse offences should be decriminalized (not trafficking, obviously), and these individuals instead be treated with compassion, treatment programs, and, if necessary, government supplied safe drugs and narcotics for maintenance. This is the most humane thing to do, and would automatically eliminate a lot of petty crime as addicts would not have to steal to feed their habits.
6) - Other offences could be decriminalized too, with the offenders given fines rather than a criminal record and/or jail time. For example, a first time drunk driving charge (with no property damage, injury or loss of life) could be handled with a stiff fine and a warning that if it happens again, they will be going to jail. The perpetrator thus escapes a criminal record, which could affect his employability.

All of these changes could be accomplished without having to abolish police services or radically changing the justice system. Police have a very important and stressful job in our society providing us all with order and security. They deserve our respect and thanks. Lets all work together and try to find a solution.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Lmao ummm... well thanks for the approval? I'm a really smart person, just usually unable to articulate the things I'm trying to say because of a mentally devastating combination of ADHD, GAD, and PTSD... so yeah.

Didn't really post that for approval though. So, any thoughts on it?

I don't agree with everything, but you gave me lots of food for thought, that's all.

And don't you have your hands full with LakeLocker, anyway?

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, I am no friend of the idea of "defunding" or abolishing police departments, or tearing down all the penitentiaries like some of the most zealous BLM activists want but:

1) - I do think we should re-evaluate the mandate of the police being the ones to carry out "wellness checks." This shouldn't be their responsibility in most circumstances. This should be done by a rapid response social services team (with police back-up if necessary).
2) - I do think we should move more quickly on establishing aboriginally run police (or peacekeeping) services for native reserves. There is a move in NB to look at this given the two recent incidents in the province. These services should be run to federal standards, and in conjunction with the RCMP, but native policing on reserves should be done by the natives themselves.
3) - Prisons can't be abolished, but we should make a concerted effort to limit incarceration only to those individuals who are a true danger to society. We could probably easily close 50-60% of prisons in Canada by judicious use of mandatory community based rehabilitation and education programs for offenders, restitution programs and community service.
4) - We should revisit the errors we made back in the 70s when a lot of the psychiatric hospitals and institutions in the country were closed. They should never be a first line option in treatment of disturbed individuals, but, by the same token, there will always be an underclass in society who just won't be able to cope or look after themselves. There people often turn to petty crime. Throwing these people into jail is inhumane, and only exposes them to more hard core criminal elements. If people truly cannot be trained to look after themselves in the community, then they should be humanely institutionalized.
5) - Most drug abuse offences should be decriminalized (not trafficking, obviously), and these individuals instead be treated with compassion, treatment programs, and, if necessary, government supplied safe drugs and narcotics for maintenance. This is the most humane thing to do, and would automatically eliminate a lot of petty crime as addicts would not have to steal to feed their habits.
6) - Other offences could be decriminalized too, with the offenders given fines rather than a criminal record and/or jail time. For example, a first time drunk driving charge (with no property damage, injury or loss of life) could be handled with a stiff fine and a warning that if it happens again, they will be going to jail. The perpetrator thus escapes a criminal record, which could affect his employability.

All of these changes could be accomplished without having to abolish police services or radically changing the justice system. Police have a very important and stressful job in our society providing us all with order and security. They deserve our respect and thanks. Lets all work together and try to find a solution.

The far bigger issue is the erosion of jobs for people's with disagreeable temperaments.

If you are disagreeable and your IQ is somewhat low the odds are very high that you'll end up in legal trouble, or have an extremely difficult time working in the service industry.

Immigrants create an excess of labor and it decreases the value of hiring people with criminal records.

If it weren't for illegals in the US black Americans would be far better off.

Just the same natives would be integrated into our society by very simple economic forces. But when you immigrate to replace what can you do?

Unironically I think we need to expand policing to dramatic extremes as a way of creating employment and security.

The private security industry is diverting many people destine for legal troubles/unemployment.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Haha well it's actually not stupid, and not really complicated either.

So Nelly McClung is stricken form the history books?


Didn't fucking think so.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

It only involves adding in the reality of what actually happened and including the stories of the people who were subjugated and/or nearly wiped out through those practices. There's no framework because we've never realized how wrong we were about something so relatively contemporary before. Now we have the knowledge, so it's time to create the framework and do it.

Nelly McClung Canada's great feminist was fucking pro eugenics.

And this wasn't in 1860 but less than a century ago, when we were more or less modern in terms of that type of thing.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Nelly McClung Canada's great feminist was fucking pro eugenics.

Well, there goes the "famous five" monument on Parliament Hill.........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, there goes the "famous five" monument on Parliament Hill.........

Shit.