The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I don't really see any attempt at "justification" other than "people suck, especially when in big groups, and particularly when they win at war". It's a sad reality, but it's been repeated for thousands of years.

I know the instinct is to want to fix things efficiently by dealing with and convincing groups of people but... in the giant, infinitely intricate Venn-diagram that is humanity, I fear this is bound to fail quite often. It all devolves into "you guys think" (on both/all sides) and no headway is made.

I see the ultimate goal is to "suck less individually" so that society is improved from the bottom up. In the end, I can only really fix/modify my behaviour (and to some extent that of my offspring). But that's entirely doable. As you say, it's through listening and learning and respecting. In the end, there likely still will not be 100% consensus but at least there can be a respectful equalibrium.

Agreed. 👍🏻

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Because it doesn't do that. It raises blacks up to the point where they're treated equally, not bringing others down to their level, and brings awareness to the systemic issues that affect blacks, usually due to actions of majority whites.

Anyone that says "All Lives Matter" in some contrarian tone really doesn't understand what the BLM movement really is or what it's about other than the fact that blacks are behind it.

I heard it pretty succinctly the other day, “the American government is lucky that black people just want equality, and not revenge.” If they wanted revenge, that entire country would be in flames for years. They deserve revenge, but it’s not what they want. No one wants a devastating war, just to be treated equally and have a fair chance at a good life. Equal access to health care, public education, an entirely revised policing system, dismantling the industrialized and privatized prison system, releasing every inmate incarcerated for petty crimes (mostly marijuana possession and/or dealing [40% of drug related arrests, difficult to find number incarcerated for it, but it’s 940,000 out of 1.1 million people are on parole because of pot] ), and the de-glorification of historic abominable figures is a good start.


Statistics source: https://drugabusestatistics.org/marijuana-incarceration/

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

In other news, CHOP in Seattle is being dismantled. They had 3 shootings since Saturday (source).

I wonder if this changed anybody's opinion about how it was a harmless peaceful exercise of people holding hands and promoting anti-racism in a power vacuum with limited policing. I'm sure many will try to explain it away by pointing out that the "good guys" didn't shoot anybody, but the fact is 3 people were shot in a small area during a short period of time.

I'm all for police and criminal justice reform but I don't think that creating policing-free zones is a good way to do this. If you kick out the official police you will get unofficial random policing from gun aficionados, and criminals will be emboldened. In a similar way, if you are too antagonistic toward police, they will stop policing, and crime will increase. High crime neighbourhoods will be hurt the most.

May 2020 had 79% more murders in NYC than May 2019 (source).

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for a police-free future. That is on the naive end of the spectrum on these issues, in my opinion.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for a police-free future. That is on the naive end of the spectrum on these issues, in my opinion.

This is in the BLM Vancouver demands and the CHOP demands (already posted before).

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is in the BLM Vancouver demands and the CHOP demands (already posted before).

I assume you mean this one:

"The City of Vancouver must commit to improving social conditions across the city with a commitment to the goal of eventually abolishing police and prisons, as they serve the primary purpose of oppressing marginalized communities and protecting the riches of the wealthy minority of denizens."

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I assume you mean this one:

OK, that's a silly demand (not least because the City of Vancouver has exactly zero jurisdiction to abolish prisons [which are matters of provincial and federal jurisdiction]).

But one can recognize that this is a sill demand (as I do) and still be generally supportive of the BLM movement's central concerns (as I am) that there is institutional and system discrimination (on the basis of race) in Canada and the United States and that we need to take meaningful action to address that.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

But one can recognize that this is a sill demand (as I do) and still be generally supportive of the "BLM movements" central concerns (as I am) that there is institutional and system discrimination (on the basis of race) in Canada and the United States and that we need to take meaningful action to address that.

But I think some of these problems relate to the BLM principle that radical change must come from outside of "the system" because it is broken beyond repair.

I believe that in Canada at least we have, overall, healthy and responsive democratic institutions that can be reformed and are currently doing a lot of good. I don't consider police forces or the criminal justice system to be particularly healthy, but they answer to elected bodies. City councillors can fire police chiefs and officers if they want.

If you're going to whittle down the BLM platform so much that it only amounts to "racism is bad", or "racism exists", then, sure, it's easy to agree with. You've gone quite far down the No True Scotsman path by that point though.

I'm concerned that systemic racism is becoming a social "hammer" and every problem is starting to look like a nail. What is truly the largest factor behind police killings? Is it that police on the whole hold racist animus toward certain groups, and therefore treat them unusually badly? Is it that police use too much indiscriminate violence, and have more contact with some groups that with others? I believe that second explanation is much more accurate.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

But I think some of these problems relate to the BLM principle that radical change must come from outside of "the system" because it is broken beyond repair..

If radical change must come from outside the "system", then that by definition is revolution, and could include uncontrolled insurrection. I think they would lose a lot of sympathy if things devolve to this..........

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by someone123

But I think some of these problems relate to the BLM principle that radical change must come from outside of "the system" because it is broken beyond repair.

I believe that in Canada at least we have, overall, healthy and responsive democratic institutions that can be reformed and are currently doing a lot of good. I don't consider police forces or the criminal justice system to be particularly healthy, but they answer to elected bodies. City councillors can fire police chiefs and officers if they want.

If you're going to whittle down the BLM platform so much that it only amounts to "racism is bad", or "racism exists", then, sure, it's easy to agree with. You've gone quite far down the No True Scotsman path by that point though.

I concede that I am probably guilty of this.

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm concerned that systemic racism is becoming a social "hammer" and every problem is starting to look like a nail. What is truly the largest factor behind police killings? Is it that police on the whole hold racist animus toward certain groups, and therefore treat them unusually badly? Is it that police use too much indiscriminate violence, and have more contact with some groups that with others? I believe that second explanation is much more accurate.

Certainly, the bolded is a significant part of the problem. Indeed, it is likely the biggest problem. But it only leads to more difficult (but vital) questions. For instance, why do Canadian police have more contact with indigenous people? Why do American police have more contact with black people? Why do those groups suffer from drug abuse, alcohol abuse, domestic violence, incarceration and poverty at higher rates than other members of our society?

Certainly, at an individual level, members of these groups have some personal responsibility for their actions. However, at an institutional level, our most important institutions also need to look at their responsibility for these outcomes and try to address those.

Again, perhaps I've wandered too far from tenets of the "BLM movement" to fairly call myself a "supporter"? I don't know. But, at the very least, the "BLM movement" is an important "canary in the coal mine" and hopefully spurs real change.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is in the BLM Vancouver demands and the CHOP demands (already posted before).

I’m talking about the people participating in this chat thread.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If radical change must come from outside the "system", then that by definition is revolution, and could include uncontrolled insurrection. I think they would lose a lot of sympathy if things devolve to this..........

Similar to how police are losing a lot of sympathy as they continue to execute black children and young adults.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If radical change must come from outside the "system", then that by definition is revolution, and could include uncontrolled insurrection. I think they would lose a lot of sympathy if things devolve to this..........

These leftists aren’t the ones with stockpiles of guns, etc. The fear of “uncontrolled insurrection” from them is overly dramatic.

Maybe we’ll get more strikes and protests. For once the lazy, complacent North Americans we have become will finally recognize they have the power to do so, that it is effective, and we can overthrow the systems that serve primarily the rich and powerful.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

But I think some of these problems relate to the BLM principle that radical change must come from outside of "the system" because it is broken beyond repair.

I believe that in Canada at least we have, overall, healthy and responsive democratic institutions that can be reformed and are currently doing a lot of good. I don't consider police forces or the criminal justice system to be particularly healthy, but they answer to elected bodies. City councillors can fire police chiefs and officers if they want.

This hasn’t worked so far, hence the desire for more radical change and the outside voices growing louder.

Wanting to destroy a system that hasn’t served you, that has denigrated you, is a normal human response. It is up to us to hear that and transform it into effective change. How radical that goes is perhaps outside of our comfort zone but deserves consideration. Focusing more on how you don’t like the way the message is being conveyed rather than the root of the message itself conveys that the problem is not that important to you. If your friend is suffering, do you waste precious time telling him over and over again to convey his suffering in a way more palatable to you or do you just fucking help him.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

These leftists aren’t the ones with stockpiles of guns, etc. The fear of “uncontrolled insurrection” from them is overly dramatic.

I specifically said "uncontrolled" and not "armed" for a reason.

An uncontrolled mob without guns can still do a lot of damage.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

This hasn’t worked so far, hence the desire for more radical change and the outside voices growing louder.

86% was from 2011, sampled across the United States: https://news.gallup.com/poll/149390/record-high-approve-black-white-marriages.aspx

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Similar to how police are losing a lot of sympathy as they continue to execute black children and young adults.

There has been precious little in the way of targeted executions by police in Canada.

Unfortunate deaths? Absolutely! And this is due to poor police training, inappropriate use of police as surrogate mental health workers, and some degree of systemic bias but any talk of executions in Canada goes beyond the pale.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

This hasn’t worked so far...

Originally Posted by rousseau

From 2001 to 2017:
- incarceration rate of black men aged 18-19 dropped 72%
- incarceration rate of black men aged 20-24 dropped 60%
- incarceration rate of black men aged 25-29 dropped 59%
- teenage birth rate for black women aged 15-19 dropped 63%
- deaths from heart disease for black Americans over 65 down 43%
- life expectancy up 3 1/2 and 3 years for black women and men, respectively
- bachelor's degrees awarded to black students up 82%
- over 60% of black people report doing better financially than their parents did (higher percentage than whites or hispanics)
- black women now go on to earn more than white women from similar socioeconomic backgrounds

The status quo is working for black Americans.

There is a specific American problem of the militarization of police that is essentially non-racist in its manifestation. How you solve that in a country of 330 million with 400 million guns is anyone's guess.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The status quo is working for black Americans.

There is a specific American problem of the militarization of police that is essentially non-racist in its manifestation. How you solve that in a country of 330 million with 400 million guns is anyone's guess.

The hubris of a White man in Ontario to lecture on how Black Americans should perceive their own experiences, to say that it’s good enough now so stop complaining, is just so far beyond my own understanding. You’re a complete waste of energy at this point.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

86% was from 2011, sampled across the United States: https://news.gallup.com/poll/149390/record-high-approve-black-white-marriages.aspx

Yes, everything’s fine now.

That’s what you want to hear, right? All of these minorities can just shut up. Well I won’t. They won’t. The future I see is increasingly uncomfortable for you. I hope you learn how to better deal with it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The hubris of a White man in Ontario to lecture on how Black Americans should perceive their own experiences, to say that it’s good enough now so stop complaining, is just so far beyond my own understanding. You’re a complete waste of energy at this point.

The hubris to suggest that a "white man" can not offer an alternate point of view , based on his own experiences and should just STFU, and let the revolution proceed without any reasonable opposition is beyond the pale. You're a complete waste of energy at this point.

You're racializing the situation as much as anyone else by suggesting this is a "white man's problem"