The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dleung]

How many of these posts actually confront the systemic racism problem, or are they mainly whataboutisms or reactions to overreactions a la "I don't want to talk about ending qualified immunity because the SJW's hijacked my pancake syrup!" Seems like a lot of effort to poo poo any change to maintain the status quo

[someone123]

If you want to talk about qualified immunity, nobody is stopping you.

But I will warn you this is a discussion forum so there might be replies, and people might or might not agree with you.

[Chadillaccc]

I don’t understand how in this day and age where we are aware of the unquestionable fact that systemic racism exists - especially in policing institutions - that any even half-sane person could argue for qualified immunity. 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 ludicrous.

[Nashe]

I personally am only going to feel "guilty" about my sins and mistakes. I've definitely made enough of them. In similar vein I don't feel guilty for being a man, or PERSONALLY for what other men have done, but I will for times I've personally been misogynistic. I definitely don't mind being called out for my own failings. Imma do my best to improve MY behaviour and outlook. Maybe we can outgrow all of this.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by dleung

How many of these posts actually confront the systemic racism problem, or are they mainly whataboutisms or reactions to overreactions a la "I don't want to talk about ending qualified immunity because the SJW's hijacked my pancake syrup!" Seems like a lot of effort to poo poo any change to maintain the status quo

Surely you are not suggesting that this thread is noteworthy mainly for its lack of discussion of its supposed topic?

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I personally am only going to feel "guilty" about my sins and mistakes. I've definitely made enough of them. In similar vein I don't feel guilty for being a man, or PERSONALLY for what other men have done, but I will for times I've personally been misogynistic. I definitely don't mind being called out for my own failings. Imma do my best to improve MY behaviour and outlook. Maybe we can outgrow all of this.

I don't understand the "BLM movement" to be asking white people to personally feel guilty or responsible for the flaws of the large institutions or broader cultural forces in our societies. To the extent that people on the margins of that "BLM movement" are advocating for this, I think that is, at best, silly and, at worst, counter-productive. However, I think very few people are in fact advocating for this.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I don't understand the "BLM movement" to be asking white people to personally feel guilty or responsible for the flaws of the large institutions or broader cultural forces in our societies.

Because it doesn't do that. It raises blacks up to the point where they're treated equally, not bringing others down to their level, and brings awareness to the systemic issues that affect blacks, usually due to actions of majority whites.

Anyone that says "All Lives Matter" in some contrarian tone really doesn't understand what the BLM movement really is or what it's about other than the fact that blacks are behind it.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Anyone that says "All Lives Matter" in some contrarian tone really doesn't understand what the BLM movement really is or what it's about other than the fact that blacks are behind it.

That's definitely the key to remember. It's about bringing up to an equitable level, not tearing everyone else down to one.

[urbandreamer]

When some of you are talking about "white people" you should modify that to the top 10-20%: corporate leadership (CEO, VP, department leaders, managers), the inbred political class, some small business owners, some farmers, real estate developers, advertising companies etc. In particular dreambrother's impressions of white people seems to come from MSM/hollywood/corporate stereotypes which are based around the fiction that is perpetuated by directors, screen writers, journalists, editors in the biz to enhance profits.

I think of the fortune 500 companies I've worked at and top managements disdain for the average worker: their cold calculating behaviour could describe any psychopath.

Remember not all white people are the same: An Ulster Scotsman is a very different person than an Irish Catholic; a Russian Mennonite is very different than a Hutterite; a Milanese businessman is very different than a Sicilian farmer. Generalizing "white people" makes you look as stupid as me calling all black people "African Americans." And then there's the class issue: a working class family of grade 12 educated factory workers from Chesley Ontario is very different from a WASP lawyer and school teacher from Guelph Ontario who send their children to French Immersion private schools.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Human sacrifice is a savage practice" in 2020 is "mind-blowing" to you?!?

You're the only person I've heard in 2020 (and in my entire life, actually) taking a stance in favor of human sacrifice being the civilized/educated thing to do.

No, the characterization that indigenous people were human sacrificing savages is a racist caricature that was used to dehumanize them and justify European colonialism. The indigenous people were bad and the Europeans were good in the most simplistic Eurocentric terms.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by dleung

How many of these posts actually confront the systemic racism problem, or are they mainly whataboutisms or reactions to overreactions a la "I don't want to talk about ending qualified immunity because the SJW's hijacked my pancake syrup!" Seems like a lot of effort to poo poo any change to maintain the status quo

Yes, this is the tiresome, endless, filibustering process that marginalized people don’t want to participate in anymore, hence why they are protesting, making demands, not asking politely (because those opposed have shown that they don’t listen) and taking power into their own hands.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I personally am only going to feel "guilty" about my sins and mistakes. I've definitely made enough of them. In similar vein I don't feel guilty for being a man, or PERSONALLY for what other men have done, but I will for times I've personally been misogynistic. I definitely don't mind being called out for my own failings. Imma do my best to improve MY behaviour and outlook. Maybe we can outgrow all of this.

Yes, and it’s not that you have to feel guilty for the state of the world or racial issues, but that you have a responsibility to be aware of them, to listen to the experiences of other groups, and then act in respectful ways that show you have learned from what you have heard.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I don't understand the "BLM movement" to be asking white people to personally feel guilty or responsible for the flaws of the large institutions or broader cultural forces in our societies. To the extent that people on the margins of that "BLM movement" are advocating for this, I think that is, at best, silly and, at worst, counter-productive. However, I think very few people are in fact advocating for this.

It’s not about guilt so much as being aware of the past, how it has shaped today, and what we as a society need to do about that. Should this make you feel bad or sad at times? Yes, it really 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 and it is sad. Are you personally responsible for creating this situation? No, we were born into it, but you may have contributed to it since then through actions, words, deeds or inaction. That is the work we all must do.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

No, the characterization that indigenous people were human sacrificing savages is a racist caricature that was used to dehumanize them and justify European colonialism. The indigenous people were bad and the Europeans were good in the most simplistic Eurocentric terms.

Except that human sacrifice actually was common in various pre-Columbian Indigenous societies, it isn't just a racist caricature. Amongst Eastern Woodland nations, prisoners of war were often ritually tortured to death. The simplistic 'Indigenous people were good and Europeans genocidal maniacs' claim that is so common now, and espoused by yourself is just as misleading. It's plainly evident the arrival of the Europeans was a disaster for the Indigenous populations and there is merit to the portrayal of 1492 as the beginning of a genocide, but it's hardly as though the Americas were some utopia of peace and coexistence before the Europeans arrived.


https://maa.missouri.edu/gallery/appeasing-gods-human-sacrifice-pre-columbian-cultures

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

When some of you are talking about "white people" you should modify that to the top 10-20%: corporate leadership (CEO, VP, department leaders, managers), the inbred political class, some small business owners, some farmers, real estate developers, advertising companies etc. In particular dreambrother's impressions of white people seems to come from MSM/hollywood/corporate stereotypes which are based around the fiction that is perpetuated by directors, screen writers, journalists, editors in the biz to enhance profits.

I think of the fortune 500 companies I've worked at and top managements disdain for the average worker: their cold calculating behaviour could describe any psychopath.

Remember not all white people are the same: An Ulster Scotsman is a very different person than an Irish Catholic; a Russian Mennonite is very different than a Hutterite; a Milanese businessman is very different than a Sicilian farmer. Generalizing "white people" makes you look as stupid as me calling all black people "African Americans." And then there's the class issue: a working class family of grade 12 educated factory workers from Chesley Ontario is very different from a WASP lawyer and school teacher from Guelph Ontario who send their children to French Immersion private schools.

The worst among us do not erase the problems that have existed everywhere in our society.

I grew up working class. My family was racist towards indigenous people and so was everyone else I knew with few exceptions. Their class does not give them a pass.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, and it’s not that you have to feel guilty for the state of the world or racial issues, but that you have a responsibility to be aware of them, to listen to the experiences of other groups, and then act in respectful ways that show you have learned from what you have heard.

I don't think anyone here has advocated against that. Thought it's possible I missed it.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by savevp

Except that human sacrifice actually was common in various pre-Columbian Indigenous societies, it isn't just a racist caricature. The simplistic 'Indigenous people were good and Europeans genocidal maniacs' claim that is so common now, and espoused by yourself is just as misleading. It's plainly evident the arrival of the Europeans was a disaster for the Indigenous populations and there is merit to the portrayal of 1492 as the beginning of a genocide, but it's hardly as though the Americas were some utopia of peace and coexistence.


https://maa.missouri.edu/gallery/appeasing-gods-human-sacrifice-pre-columbian-cultures

Of course, people are complex mixtures of good and bad behaviours. I am not romanticizing pre-contact North Americans, because that does not humanize them. Europeans classified the indigenous people as bad and themselves as good, and that is the root of where we find ourselves today, the root of how they dehumanized an entire continent of people. The article you linked to only mentioned Peruvian and Mesoamerican tribes, and thus saying it was common is disingenuous. Human sacrifice has existed throughout the world, including Europe, and using it in this way as a moral qualification against a conglomerate grouping of people so varied and complex is simply unjust.

What is burning witches? Human sacrifice. What is a lynching? Human sacrifice

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I don't think anyone here has advocated against that. Thought it's possible I missed it.

This thread is filled to the brim with people doing that.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

This thread is filled to the brim with people doing that.

I don't really see any attempt at "justification" other than "people 🞵🞵🞵🞵, especially when in big groups, and particularly when they win at war". It's a sad reality, but it's been repeated for thousands of years.

I know the instinct is to want to fix things efficiently by dealing with and convincing groups of people but... in the giant, infinitely intricate Venn-diagram that is humanity, I fear this is bound to fail quite often. It all devolves into "you guys think" (on both/all sides) and no headway is made.

I see the ultimate goal is to "🞵🞵🞵🞵 less individually" so that society is improved from the bottom up. In the end, I can only really fix/modify my behaviour (and to some extent that of my offspring). But that's entirely doable. As you say, it's through listening and learning and respecting. In the end, there likely still will not be 100% consensus but at least there can be a respectful equalibrium.

[someone123]

In other news, CHOP in Seattle is being dismantled. They had 3 shootings since Saturday (source).

I wonder if this changed anybody's opinion about how it was a harmless peaceful exercise of people holding hands and promoting anti-racism in a power vacuum with limited policing. I'm sure many will try to explain it away by pointing out that the "good guys" didn't shoot anybody, but the fact is 3 people were shot in a small area during a short period of time.

I'm all for police and criminal justice reform but I don't think that creating policing-free zones is a good way to do this. If you kick out the official police you will get unofficial random policing from 🞵🞵🞵 aficionados, and criminals will be emboldened. In a similar way, if you are too antagonistic toward police, they will stop policing, and crime will increase. High crime neighbourhoods will be hurt the most.

May 2020 had 79% more murders in NYC than May 2019 (source).