HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #15381  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2020, 3:43 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Don't they all look like yellow pumpkins to you? My workplace has windows! If we ever got an A388 at YYC we'd be pretty impressed. But I don't imagine that happening any time soon.
My workplace has windows too now! That’s been the case for 5 years. Transferring to tower was the best decision I ever made. It doesn’t beat the view out of YVR or YYC tower, but it’s still nice.
     
     
  #15382  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2020, 3:45 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,310
Duplicate post, so might as well write something YVR related.

TK delaying YVR launch to September.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...lays-vancouver-launch-to-september-2020/
     
     
  #15383  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2020, 8:48 PM
YYCguys YYCguys is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Since Tahiti is reopening to tourism July 15, why not sell tickets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Could be an issue with the lack of bi laterals for fifth freedoms.
I was able to purchase a ticket to Tahiti from LAX a few years ago. Is there a different agreement between Tahiti/France and Canada vs Tahiti/France and USA?
     
     
  #15384  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2020, 10:42 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by YYCguys View Post
I was able to purchase a ticket to Tahiti from LAX a few years ago. Is there a different agreement between Tahiti/France and Canada vs Tahiti/France and USA?
They are both openskies type agreements.

The difference is LAX demand to PPT far outweights YVR-PPT.
     
     
  #15385  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2020, 1:27 AM
YYCguys YYCguys is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
They are both openskies type agreements.

The difference is LAX demand to PPT far outweights YVR-PPT.
Wouldn’t it be lovely if TN or AF picked up/dropped off passengers in YVR maybe once or twice a week and the rest of the week could be LAX?
     
     
  #15386  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2020, 6:46 AM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by YYCguys View Post
Wouldn’t it be lovely if TN or AF picked up/dropped off passengers in YVR maybe once or twice a week and the rest of the week could be LAX?
Sure. If COVID hadn't happened, that might have made sense. Now in a post COVID world, forget about it, at least for the next little while.
     
     
  #15387  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2020, 12:18 AM
VancouverOfTheFuture's Avatar
VancouverOfTheFuture VancouverOfTheFuture is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
in response to the North-South Taxiway

source: YVR
so, with this whole airline travel thing on the back burner for the next few years, does anyone think this North-South taxiway will happen? it would still be beneficial from a few aspects, but without the traffic i don't see it being wanted.
     
     
  #15388  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2020, 2:50 AM
osirisboy's Avatar
osirisboy osirisboy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 6,429
That was a long ways out to begin with
     
     
  #15389  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2020, 8:36 AM
Johnny Aussie's Avatar
Johnny Aussie Johnny Aussie is offline
G'day
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 4,479
AI is operating its first repat flight to Mumbai instead of Delhi. AI 1114 almost at BOM.

And of course CZ's weekly A380 on its way from CAN as well.
     
     
  #15390  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2020, 1:59 PM
Gordon Gordon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,065
is there any new info on Pier F?
     
     
  #15391  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2020, 7:44 PM
Johnny Aussie's Avatar
Johnny Aussie Johnny Aussie is offline
G'day
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 4,479
MU flew in a 359 from PVG - first in awhile... now heading back to WNZ (Wenzhou). MU has been flying mainly 332s and 77Ws into YVR.

Also CZ has a 789 flight from CGO (Zengzhou) due in shortly.
     
     
  #15392  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 9:58 PM
Av8or Av8or is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 10
Westjet laying off 3,333 network wide. With some cuts at head office.

What is everyone thinking? Anyone have details on if this is the notice period while small ground handling companies pop up in smaller markets. I was thinking YUL, YCD, YQQ etc.

https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-ann...re-its-future/
     
     
  #15393  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 5:42 AM
Johnny Aussie's Avatar
Johnny Aussie Johnny Aussie is offline
G'day
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 4,479
PR doing a non-stop flight to Cebu now. PR 5117 doing YVR-CEB

Last edited by Johnny Aussie; Jun 26, 2020 at 11:23 AM.
     
     
  #15394  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2020, 8:02 AM
deasine deasine is offline
Vancouver Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
There are no fifth freedom rights on PPT-YVR-CDG. Only 2 countries are involved. France and Canada. French Polynesia is a part of France.

Fifth freedom implies a third country is in the mix.
I understand your point, but French Polynesia is an Overseas Collective and not an Overseas Department and Region ("Overseas Departments"). This is significant as EU membership applies to Overseas Departments and not Overseas Collectives. (See EU Membership: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en#header_countries_list). This means that the current Canada and European Union bilateral only applies to European Union member states and the European Community of which French Polynesia is not part of, and thus considered a "third state" for the purposes of air freedoms.

As an example, Canada has a provisional air bilateral between Sint Maarten, which is part of the Netherlands but not part of the EU. (See: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/transport-agreement/sint-maarten)

I understand that the United States and French Polynesia is covered under a separate agreement between France and the United States (http://www.paclii.org/pits/en/treaty_database/2002/1.html). As this stipulated certain overseas French territories, I believe this agreement with an annex in 2002 is still current.

LAX will be the far more reasonable route given (1) higher demand; but also (2) better geographical positioning relative to any Canadian stopover point to serve other North American markets.
     
     
  #15395  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 2:51 AM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,310
Saint Pierre and Miquelon is also a french overseas collectivity. They have no bilateral air agreement with Canada, and yet Air Saint Pierre carries passengers between FSP and YUL/YHZ, etc. How could they if they are not part of the EU bilateral and they have no bilateral of their own with Canada?

French Saint Martin is also a French collective, yet is a part of the EU. (The link you provided says so). So there seems to be exceptions to the rule that French collectivities arent a part of the EU.

In the Canada-EU air agreement, Article 1 mentions that all land areas (mainland and islands) of the countries involved are covered by the agreement. Nowhere is there mention of French overseas department or collectivity. They just use the word "islands".

All of these points make me 99.9% sure that French Polynesia and Saint Pierre et Miquelon are covered under the Canada-EU bilateral air agreement.

Last edited by thenoflyzone; Jul 1, 2020 at 3:02 AM.
     
     
  #15396  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 6:04 AM
zahav zahav is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,052
Air Canada announced a huge network adjustment, namely dropping 30 route pairs, and 8 destinations entirely. All of these are domestic. BC didn't suffer any loss of routes or cities, thankfully. The schedule is still a fraction of what it should be normally, but at least no pairings or cities got the chop here. When I worked at the airport, AC said routes such as YVR-YXT and other regional ones were very strong for them.

Atlantic Canada got nailed, with a huge part of the cuts. As did Quebec and to a less extent, Ontario.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-06-...utes-and-Closes-Eight-Stations-in-Canada
     
     
  #15397  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2020, 7:16 AM
deasine deasine is offline
Vancouver Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
Saint Pierre and Miquelon is also a french overseas collectivity. They have no bilateral air agreement with Canada, and yet Air Saint Pierre carries passengers between FSP and YUL/YHZ, etc. How could they if they are not part of the EU bilateral and they have no bilateral of their own with Canada?

French Saint Martin is also a French collective, yet is a part of the EU. (The link you provided says so). So there seems to be exceptions to the rule that French collectivities arent a part of the EU.

In the Canada-EU air agreement, Article 1 mentions that all land areas (mainland and islands) of the countries involved are covered by the agreement. Nowhere is there mention of French overseas department or collectivity. They just use the word "islands".

All of these points make me 99.9% sure that French Polynesia and Saint Pierre et Miquelon are covered under the Canada-EU bilateral air agreement.
Official Departments are all members of the EU's Outermost Regions, which:

Quote:
Despite the thousands of kilometres separating them from the European continent, these regions are an integral part of the EU. Therefore, EU law and all the rights and duties associated with EU membership apply to the outermost regions.
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/en/...%20counts,the%20Canary%20Islands%20(Spin).

French Polynesia is considered EU Overseas Countries and Territories (OCT) and per the European Union do not form part of the the EU Territory:

Quote:
They play an important role as outposts of the EU in the areas where they are located, but do not, however, form part of the EU territory nor of the EU single market.
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/international-partnerships/where-we-work/overseas-countries-and-territories_en

I'll point out again that Aruba of the Netherlands, which is an OCT, has a separate air service bilateral with Canada.

Now, with regards to Saint Pierre and Miquelon, I believe you may be correct that the Canada-EU bilateral applies here because I don't have evidence that it does not otherwise apply. However, there is some history behind Saint Pierre and Miquelon with the then EEC as this was the only territory status unilaterally changed by the Member State (France) per No. 400/76. Given that the Treaty of Lisbon, which is the architecture of the formation of the European Union, is based on previous treaties including the Treaty of Rome, I'm not exactly sure if and how the Saint Pierre and Miquelon precedent applies or doesn't apply today. But there has been debate (see works by Ziller). While not an official source, Armand de Mestral of McGill wrote an article on the Canada-EU bilateral which states Air Saint Pierre as a designated foreign airline under France (I can't find the primary source for this). Note that Air Tahiti Nui is not listed.

Air Tahiti Nui in 2018 applied for additional bilateral rights to codeshare. The application states that:

Quote:
Air Tahiti Nui is licensed to operate, through code sharing, a scheduled international service in accordance with the Air Transport Agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of the French Republic, signed on June 15, 1976, as amended (Agreement).
Source: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/node/567858

This directly suggests that French Polynesia is not covered under the Canada-EU bilateral but rather by the agreement between France and Canada signed 1976, the status of which is still "in force" by the Government of Canada. Details of the agreement are stated here: https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=100052

Also, Air France successfully applied to operate "Route 3" between Papeete and Vancouver (per the original 1976 agreement) which provides another evidence suggesting that the Canada-EU bilateral does not extend to all French overseas territories beyond what is recognized as part of the EU.

It seems that should Air Tahiti Nui be permitted to carry passengers both between PPT-CDG, PPT-YVR, and YVR-CDG, additional bilaterals will need to be applied for.
     
     
  #15398  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2020, 12:48 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post

This directly suggests that French Polynesia is not covered under the Canada-EU bilateral but rather by the agreement between France and Canada signed 1976, the status of which is still "in force" by the Government of Canada. Details of the agreement are stated here: https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=100052

.
Except that the Canada-EU agreement specifically mentions in Annex 3 that the 1976 agreement between Canada and France is suspended or superseded by this agreement.

This being said, on treaty-accord.gc.ca, the 1976 agreement is mentioned as still being "in force". So could very well be that the government of Canada is keeping that old agreement in force specifically because of French Polynesia. Or it could simply mean its a clerical error and the old agreement is in fact suspended, as the new agreement mentions.

Either way - and more importantly, back to your original comment about 5th freedom flights - whether we assume the new Canada-EU agreement or the old 1976 agreement between Canada and France applies to French Polynesia, they are still both agreements between Canada and France. No third country is involved. So to assume there are 5th freedom issues is false, which is the initial point I was making. Now there might be restrictions in the old agreement preventing TN from continuing from YVR to Paris, but that is not a 5th freedom issue. It's simply a rights issue.

I like your thoroughness though ! Proves how complicated these things really are.

Last edited by thenoflyzone; Jul 2, 2020 at 12:59 PM.
     
     
  #15399  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2020, 8:15 PM
Johnny Aussie's Avatar
Johnny Aussie Johnny Aussie is offline
G'day
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 4,479
LH had its first flight from/to FRA for the first time in ages yesterday.

TN had two flights from PPT arrive yesterday as well.

AC currently operating a 333 to BFM(?) - Mobile’s downtown airport.

And the sky continues to be full with heavies to / from Asia
     
     
  #15400  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2020, 2:03 AM
ninjakafi_81 ninjakafi_81 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 335
On a Discord server a user pointed out that AF is returning to YVR on the 6th and posted a screenshot of the flight number AF74. I took a quick look at AF74 and AF75 on flight radar and came across this.





I'm still quite new into aviation but is AF going through with that " Route 3 " and rerouting the PPT flights through YVR ? Or is this some sort of technical glitch.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:57 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.