The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

On the Aunt Jemima file...

I have noticed that it's hit the Québécois news wires and social media.

Almost all the comments are exactly the same as mine: it was a beloved image of a sweet lady who was proud to cook for her family, that one never would have considered racist.

But as MolsonEx says, context is everything.

Context is everything. Was Canada importing Aunt Jemima was the imagery on the package was really bad? There could be a reason we understand the issues less. For Americans, the name itself is racist.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That is disgracefully true :/

Why is it disgraceful? I think the opposite.

[Chadillaccc]

Because it is a system built to support the rich at the expense of everyone else. As long as we have “bread and circuses” we will never revolt. True change is needed, including minority equity and de-marginalization. That won’t happen while those fucks remain in control, which is why it is disgraceful.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Because it is a system built to support the rich at the expense of everyone else. As long as we have “bread and circuses” we will never revolt. True change is needed, including minority equity and de-marginalization. That won’t happen while those fucks remain in control, which is why it is disgraceful.

I think we can emulate some of the more social democractic countries of Europe and pull everyone up together. There will always be money and power inequality. Keeping it reasonable while enjoying a capitalist free market is the best plan IMO.

Canada isn't too far off of this.

[lio45]

LOL. World-class ignorance there.

I'm with milomilo.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Because it is a system built to support the rich at the expense of everyone else. As long as we have “bread and circuses” we will never revolt. True change is needed, including minority equity and de-marginalization. That won’t happen while those fucks remain in control, which is why it is disgraceful.

That's not how I read the post or how I see the system. Ideally, it works pretty well for most people, thus there is no need to revolt. In reality, if not in the minds of the most vocal, this is the case in Canada. Very few people are truly mistreated, especially compared to the past.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The biggest groundswell right now isn't happening where the mob thinks it is. (They think it's overwhelmingly on their side.)

It's not an alt-right thing either.

It's really in the middle, and it's saying "uhhh, wait a minute now".

You hear very little of this under people's real names right now, as the mob is an extremely intimidating force.

Though you do hear it a lot on forums such as this one, given that we are anonymous.

But it's very noteworthy that almost no one with any authority is willing to say that in front of a microphone right now.

It's not because they're more morally virtuous or enlightened than we are. It's because they are afraid of the mob.

The truth will come out in the next round of elections at various levels. We'll see just how broad the appeal of this type of 'revolutionary' thinking really is.

The way things stand, we have out of 14 provincial, territorial and federal governments, a grand total of one that could plausibly claim to be left wing (BC). And a few other Liberal governments that might reach over a little into the centre-left. A country thirsty for revolution probably doesn't elect conservative governments in most of the provinces.

The Facebook and Twitter mobs are just a small but vocal subset of the population.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Plenty of virtue signalling from the left of course. But I'm not sure history will judge these mobs too much at all. It's a snap reaction to a buildup of racial tension. It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.

Perhaps it will be the end to the ever-increasing militarization of the police, though I don't see departments being dissolved en masse.

Kids these days, amirite?

Yes, in the late 60s whole city blocks were burned. No one is writing articles critical of them now because we recognize how bad it was, while as per usual a lot of white people at the time were comfortable in their denial.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The biggest groundswell right now isn't happening where the mob thinks it is. (They think it's overwhelmingly on their side.)

It's not an alt-right thing either.

It's really in the middle, and it's saying "uhhh, wait a minute now".

You hear very little of this under people's real names right now, as the mob is an extremely intimidating force.

Though you do hear it a lot on forums such as this one, given that we are anonymous.

But it's very noteworthy that almost no one with any authority is willing to say that in front of a microphone right now.

It's not because they're more morally virtuous or enlightened than we are. It's because they are afraid of the mob.

Public opinion polls show a dramatic swing in favour of BLM after the protests.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's a mischaracterization of the discussion.

French Canadians entered the discussion because of repeated dismissals from some posters to others that "they don't know what it's like" to be discriminated or hated for what you "are".

It turns out some of us do know what it's like.

Yes, but as has already been clarified: you can only speak from your own experience. You do not know what it’s like to be black or indigenous in this country.

If anyone wants to open the can of worms which is the maltreatment of French Canadians, go ahead. It is another topic on which we are poorly educated in the ROC. If people knew their history better they would react more empathetically to separatists, rather than getting lost in their own prideful defensiveness.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, but as has already been clarified: you can only speak from your own experience. You do not know what it’s like to be black or indigenous in this country.

So I can say "I've been dealt a horribly poor hand from birth... poor me... I managed to kinda become okay but I should still get huge financial reparations right now to help me... and no, you can't contradict me, you have no idea whatsoever how bad the unfortunate people who have [lio45-specific characteristic that you don't have] have it in this country, and you can't possibly claim to understand or know that"

?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

So I can say "I've been dealt a horribly poor hand... poor me... I managed to kinda become okay but I should still get huge financial reparations right now to help me... and no, you can't contradict me, you have no idea whatsoever how bad the unfortunate people who have [lio45-specific characteristic that you don't have] have it in this country, and you can't possibly claim to understand or know that"

?

Yeah, exactly. Also under this model black people cannot say they have been discriminated against more than French Canadians unless the black people are themselves French Canadian.

I question how much true communication can happen under a system where everybody talks about isolated personal experience or experience balkanized by identity group. There needs to be a way to reconcile different experiences, and an objective standard for deciding who gets what or how society operates. Usually facts and logic enter into the decision-making process somewhere.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Yes, in the late 60s whole city blocks were burned. No one is writing articles critical of them now because we recognize how bad it was, while as per usual a lot of white people at the time were comfortable in their denial.

Whole sections of Chicago and Newark never recovered from those riots. Not to mention almost the entirety of Detroit.

I'm sure the academic writing on the subject doesn't delve into the topic of how devastating the riots were because that would question the narrative of their justification. Also, equating attitudes white people have now with those in the 1960s is intellectually dishonest. Disagreeing with the BLM ideology these days is not the same as disagreeing with MLK in 1967.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by lio45

So I can say "I've been dealt a horribly poor hand from birth... poor me... I managed to kinda become okay but I should still get huge financial reparations right now to help me... and no, you can't contradict me, you have no idea whatsoever how bad the unfortunate people who have [lio45-specific characteristic that you don't have] have it in this country, and you can't possibly claim to understand or know that"

?

And what in the current situation of French Canadians indicates they are in need of reparations?

I await the response of someone to indicate that you are already receiving them in the form of equalization payments.

Some wounds are deeper than others. We do not put a cast on a sprained thumb, for example.

Please ensure your arguments are made in good faith, rather than as attempts to deflect.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Whole sections of Chicago and Newark never recovered from those riots. Not to mention almost the entirety of Detroit.

I'm sure the academic writing on the subject doesn't delve into the topic of how devastating the riots were because that would question the narrative of their justification. Also, equating attitudes white people have now with those in the 1960s is intellectually dishonest. Disagreeing with the BLM ideology these days is not the same as disagreeing with MLK in 1967.

I don't know how to reconcile the claims of extreme police brutality today with the idea that old riots were productive.

In the 1992 LA riots, 63 people died and 2,383 were injured. A lot of property damage was in Koreatown. I don't know what Koreans as a group had to do with the beating of Rodney King by police.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Whole sections of Chicago and Newark never recovered from those riots. Not to mention almost the entirety of Detroit.

I'm sure the academic writing on the subject doesn't delve into the topic of how devastating the riots were because that would question the narrative of their justification. Also, equating attitudes white people have now with those in the 1960s is intellectually dishonest. Disagreeing with the BLM ideology these days is not the same as disagreeing with MLK in 1967.

Yes, some things have changed and some things have not. Most Americans disliked MLK and many cheered his death, for example. Now I’m pretty sure the vast majority of them alive then would not admit to that.

What you call intellectual dishonesty is actually just a comparison, for which both sides do not need to be equal in weight to prove a similarity.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't know how to reconcile the claims of extreme police brutality today with the idea that old riots were productive.

For example how do you argue that the 1992 LA riots, which were hugely destructive, were worthwhile yet haven't produced much in the way of improvements to police behaviour in 2020?

In the LA riots, 63 people died and 2,383 were injured. A lot of property damage was in Koreatown.

Riots are not “productive”. They are an understandable expression of extreme rage that has been bottled up in the face of dehumanizing oppression.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Riots are not “productive”. They are an understandable expression of extreme rage that has been bottled up in the face of dehumanizing oppression.

And sometimes they are just opportunistic 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 who want a bigger TV.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

What you call intellectual dishonesty is actually just a comparison, for which both sides do not need to be equal in weight to prove a similarity.

I disagree. The (very intentional) suggestion is that people demurring about BLM are harbouring the same attitudes and opinions as those who did not like MLK.

That's not just intellectually dishonest, it's patently untrue.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And sometimes they are just opportunistic 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 who want a bigger TV.

Some probably, yes, especially when viewed from the outside, without regard to their lived experience or the various reasons why they don’t care about Target’s profit margin.