The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, of course. For example, historic Japanese prejudice against Chinese and Koreans was the fault of Europeans thousands of kilometres away!

I actually agree with the enlightened principle. I am just realistic enough to know it is going to bump up against human nature in a messy way more often than not.

If it's so easy for non-whites to see white criminals as individuals rather than as proof that "Group X" is bad, how is it so "against human nature" to support extending that privilege to all races? It doesn't sound that "enlightened" at all. Slavery was part of the "natural order" some time ago. Do you believe that there needs to be a racial hierarchy?

Your whataboutism with Japan has nothing to do with skin colour. That's pretty dumb.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

While I understand the motivations behind this person's opinions, I'm still not happy about them.

In my opinion, the tradeoff for coming to the New World is that the grievances of the old one are left behind. If you can't (or refuse to) leave them behind, I don't know if there's a spot for one here.

I get that it is human nature, but nursing sentiments like that doesn't advance the discussion. If suddenly a new continent appeared and thousands of Canadians emigrated to this new land, I'd hope they'd leave behind the undesirable baggage of their former country. Admittedly easier to do in our case, but still.

It's unrealistic to expect immigrants to totally leave behind the deep-seated grievances from the old country. That's the job of the children.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's unrealistic to expect immigrants to totally leave behind the deep-seated grievances from the old country. That's the job of the children.

Yes, but I expect them to make an effort.

I'm not asking this person to completely change his view, but I am asking him to put away the military chain, the picture and perhaps be more considerate of a more moderate viewpoint.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

While I understand the motivations behind this person's opinions, I'm still not happy about them.

In my opinion, the tradeoff for coming to the New World is that the grievances of the old one are left behind. If you can't (or refuse to) leave them behind, I don't know if there's a spot for one here.

I get that it is human nature, but nursing sentiments like that doesn't advance the discussion. If suddenly a new continent appeared and thousands of Canadians emigrated to this new land, I'd hope they'd leave behind the undesirable baggage of their former country. Admittedly easier to do in our case, but still.

As esquire alluded to, though... human nature is a stubborn 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

My friend is not bad at all in the way he behaves in wider society. (I will address this in more detail in another post.)

As for his innermost views he mostly keeps them to himself. He actually says I am the only non-Lebanese person he shares them with!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Yes, but I expect them to make an effort.

I'm not asking this person to completely change his view, but I am asking him to put away the military chain, the picture and perhaps be more considerate of a more moderate viewpoint.

Behaviourally and societally, my friend is actually a perfect Trudeauist multicultural 21st century Canadian.

He is an entrepeneur and employs people of all origins, including Muslims. (The Lebanese community in this area, which was historically was almost entirely Christian, has a growing Muslim share.) He even posts "Ramadan Moubarak" on his Facebook page.

His kids also have pictures on their social media accounts with friends who are black, or are Muslim girls with hijabs.

Given the history, I don't think we can ask for much better than that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Do you believe that there needs to be a racial hierarchy?

.

I see you've activated your Mind Reading Machine again!

Otherwise, how could you guess?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

If it's so easy for non-whites to see white criminals as individuals rather than as proof that "Group X" is bad, how is it so "against human nature" to support extending that privilege to all races? It doesn't sound that "enlightened" at all. .

I have said I support the principle, and I also apply it in my life and voice it when I have an opportunity to. I don't see how I can do much better than that.

But I can't control every single other person's behaviour nor will I take responsibility for it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Yes, but I expect them to make an effort.

.

Not that I disagree but my observation is that we don't expect them (immigrants) to make an effort - at least not beyond what I described.

No one is asked to check their beliefs at the door here. You just need to stay within a certain number of parameters.

We are actually pretty open to belief systems that aren't too keen on gays or even women's "lib".

We even tolerate some of that stuff not just from new arrivals but also from long-established belief systems like Catholicism.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Behaviourally and societally, my friend is actually a perfect Trudeauist multicultural 21st century Canadian.

He is an entrepeneur and employs people of all origins, including Muslims. (The Lebanese community in this area, which was historically was almost entirely Christian, has a growing Muslim share.) He even posts "Ramadan Moubarak" on his Facebook page.

His kids also have pictures on their social media accounts with friends who are black, or are Muslim girls with hijabs.

Given the history, I don't think we can ask for much better than that.

Then that's fine since I was limited to the couple of sentences of description you gave me of him.

I'm not expecting every immigrant to join along in 'kumbaya' of 21st Century Canada ethos, but I am expecting them to play nice with others. Which this guy seems to do.

I'd expect no less of anyone who jumps through the hoops to immigrate here, nor would I expect a place to which I immigrate to completely accommodate my views.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dleung

If it's so easy for non-whites to see white criminals as individuals rather than as proof that "Group X" is bad, how is it so "against human nature" to support extending that privilege to all races? It doesn't sound that "enlightened" at all. Slavery was part of the "natural order" some time ago. Do you believe that there needs to be a racial hierarchy?

It is certainly bad if, say, Asians are anti-black. But what I don't understand is why this turns into a racial blame game with "white people" getting blamed for "white supremacy" causing Asians to be prejudiced against black people.

To me another hint that there's more going on than what the simple white supremacy model can explain is that Asians are conspicuously different in the metrics that are most frequently used to show anti-black and anti-indigenous discrimination.

For example, in BC, white people are much more likely to be killed by police on a per capita basis than Asians are. I am having trouble squaring that with a simple model of bigoted VPD officers who go out looking for POCs to harass. If police bigotry is all that drives these numbers, we must accept that the bigoted VPD officers who hunt down black and indigenous folks to terrorize like Asians more than white people.

Likewise you might hear that black people are excluded from an industry run by bigots, but then said industry might have evolved to include many Indians.

These situations make a lot more sense if you start including factors other than prejudice "where the rubber meets the road". To make sense of police numbers you need to take the context of police interaction into account (more interactions = more chances for things to go wrong, and this depends on more than just police). For hiring you need to take the whole pipeline into account (who get a healthy and supported childhood and a good education, who decides to go into what fields). Generally speaking I suspect socioeconomic factors like income and family stability are extremely important to this story. This is important because at the end of the day picking the best intervention depends on figuring out true causes, not the "blame game".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Then that's fine since I was limited to the couple of sentences of description you gave me of him.

I'm not expecting every immigrant to join along in 'kumbaya' of 21st Century Canada ethos, but I am expecting them to play nice with others. Which this guy seems to do.

I'd expect no less of anyone who jumps through the hoops to immigrate here, nor would I expect a place to which I immigrate to completely accommodate my views.

I also think that a lot of people have different standards for who they're perfectly friendly with in society versus who'd they welcome enthusiastically into their family as a potential son or daughter in law.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Architype

The referenced community was not entirely black, and was bulldozed for construction of a freeway/viaduct (the 20th century freeway mania phase), like such communities elsewhere for similar reasons, not because it was black. This was an alley of only two or three blocks. There is not much in the history of BC for African Canadians to protest about specifically. The protests here are more in support of the real problems elsewhere.

They are both. They were bulldozed because it was easy to run the highway through that area and that group was not valued to political leaders at the time.

Check out the Hogan's Alley society. It's a real thing, and was a big part of the small protest here.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I don't think there is any material systemic racism in the US today.

You can think the earth is flat too, but you'd be wrong.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

They are both. They were bulldozed because it was easy to run the highway through that area and that group was not valued to political leaders at the time.

Could it be that this area was more likely to be bulldozed partially because it was a convenient place for a viaduct while also being mostly semi-abandoned industrial land with low property values? Low property values can also explain why a poorer than average minority would tend to live there.

Another part of the Hogan's Alley story that's usually mentioned is that many black residents of Vancouver worked in the railway industry as porters. This site is near Pacific Central Station.

A part I don't usually hear is what happened to the people who lived in Hogan's Alley. Were they tenants or owners (tenants tend to be screwed over much more frequently; the owner gets bought out and the tenant simply has to find a new place to live)? Were they offered public housing or did they just move someplace else? Somewhere else in Vancouver or somewhere else entirely?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You can think the earth is flat too, but you'd be wrong.

Surely you're intelligent and informed enough to know what he meant by "systemic racism".

But in case you missed it, what he means is that there is nothing built into "systems" in the U.S. that deliberately prevents meritorious students from going to university based on their skin colour or ethnicity. There is nothing "built in" that prevents people from advancing their careers in the military or anywhere else in public service. There is no broad conspiracy to provide minority kids with a crappier education.

If anything, most anything that can be called institutional in the U.S. actually has programs of "positive discrimination" that attempt to give minorities a leg up, to compensate for injustices from the era where such systemic barriers did exist. (Since they still may have repercussions today.)

Sure, minorities still end up getting the short end of the stick far too often. That's because even the best systems are run by faliible humans, some of which are racist, have old reflexes or are simply dumb.

But of course, you already knew all of this. You just choose to ignore it because it takes away from your bombast.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sure, minorities still end up getting the short end of the stick far too often. That's because even the best systems are run by faliible humans, some of which are racist, have old reflexes or are simply dumb.

The elephant in the room remains the level of support that children get in their early years and as they move through the education system. The Harvard admissions team cannot make up for the past of an applicant who was raised in a crime-ridden neighbourhood by a working single mother who only earned $10 an hour.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The elephant in the room remains the level of support that children get in their early years and as they move through the education system. The Harvard admissions team cannot make up for the past of an applicant who was raised in a crime-ridden neighbourhood by a working single mother who only earned $10 an hour.

Of course. They do have their unfair school funding system whereby a really big chunk of school funding comes from local property taxes. That doesn't do much for schools in poor inner cities.

State departments of education and the feds do try and compensate for those inequities, but I am not sure that it's usually enough.

Even though a lot of big city school systems (with many students from less favoured milieus) in the U.S. actually have more total money per pupil than schools in more affluent suburbs.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Surely you're intelligent and informed enough to know what he meant by "systemic racism".

But in case you missed it, what he means is that there is nothing built into "systems" in the U.S. that deliberately prevents meritorious students from going to university based on their skin colour or ethnicity. There is nothing "built in" that prevents people from advancing their careers in the military or anywhere else in public service. There is no broad conspiracy to provide minority kids with a crappier education.

If anything, most anything that can be called institutional in the U.S. actually has programs of "positive discrimination" that attempt to give minorities a leg up, to compensate for injustices from the era where such systemic barriers did exist. (Since they still may have repercussions today.)

Sure, minorities still end up getting the short end of the stick far too often. That's because even the best systems are run by faliible humans, some of which are racist, have old reflexes or are simply dumb.

But of course, you already knew all of this. You just choose to ignore it because it takes away from your bombast.

It may be worth clarifying that "institutional racism/discrimination" (or "systemic racism/discrimination") does note require intent or deliberateness. Indeed, in the vast majority of cases, systemic/institutional discrimination is an unintended and unconcious consequence of otherwise well-meaning, good faith rules, policies, procedures, practices, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

It may be worth clarifying that "institutional racism/discrimination" (or "systemic racism/discrimination") does note require intent or deliberateness. Indeed, in the vast majority of cases, systemic/institutional discrimination is an unintended and unconcious consequence of otherwise well-meaning, good faith rules, policies, procedures, practices, etc.

Agreed.

I still say it's a false claim that the U.S. deliberately tries to keep its minorities down.

And yes, I have seen the video where the teacher lines up all his students on a starting line before the "race of life", then asks them a bunch of questions about them, their families and their background, and they either move forward or back based on their answers.

I agree with that video's message.

[shreddog]

Back in February 2018, Canada released a report on the state of Systemic Racism and religious intolerance in Canada, with recommendations on how to address/reduce it.

The report can be found here.

I think it provides a good insight in the problem in Canada FROM a Canadian lens with made in Canada solutions that make sense. Interestingly enough, wrt the Police, one of the recommendations is for more Police involvement through new community focused anti-hate groups.

FTR, I am possibly the biggest anti-Hedy Fry person out there, but I think she actually did a good job with this one - so kudos for her!