The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Architype

The referenced community was not entirely black, and was bulldozed for construction of a freeway/viaduct (the 20th century freeway mania phase), like such communities elsewhere for similar reasons, not because it was black. This was an alley of only two or three blocks. There is not much in the history of BC for African Canadians to protest about specifically. The protests here are more in support of the real problems elsewhere.

I get this impression for the demonstrations in Halifax too. One was for Chantel Moore specifically, another for Regis Korchinski-Paquet. And of course George Floyd.

The municipality also cancelled the purchase of an armoured vehicle for the police so the protests had some local effect.

Looking at the records for shootings by police in NS, the only recent one was the killing of mass murderer Gabriel Wortman, which I think we can agree was probably necessary since he was in the middle of a rampage. Before that it looks like the previous one was 2006 (although it's possible some area missing; there isn't very good data on this in Canada). In the US the rate of shootings by police is about 3 per million per year, so if NS were like the typical US state it could have expected to have around 40 shootings by police during the 2007-2020 period.

[someone123]

This article has a bunch of good information about police killings in BC in particular: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...c-vancouver-boyd-edey-database-1.4603820

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Sarah89

Canada never had slavery or Ronald Reagan so....

I don't think there is any material systemic racism in the US today.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Sarah89

He scapegoated blacks as welfare queen's and tried to destroy them with crack, AIDS and mass incarceration.

Was Ronald Reagan really a proponent of crack and Aids?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Architype

Was Ronald Reagan really a proponent of crack and Aids?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Canada
"HIV/AIDS was first detected in Canada in 1982."
= Pierre Elliott Trudeau's fault!!!!!

That mofo gave us BOTH the NEP and AIDS! Outrageous!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Canada
"HIV/AIDS was first detected in Canada in 1982."
= Pierre Elliott Trudeau's fault!!!!!

This is a tangent but that's a good example of a Wikipedia article that is packed with facts yet likely to give a warped perspective on its subject matter.

HIV infection rates have been plummeting since 2016 because you can take a pill to become effectively immune to HIV. It is covered in most of Canada. There are other antiviral cocktails that suppress the virus down to ~0 in most people, to the point where they are no longer infectious.

An analogy would be if you read a covid article that came out one year after a highly effective vaccine and the vaccine was just a bullet point in the list, while the main blurb at the beginning was a bunch of stats about case counts and deaths pre-vaccine.

[rousseau]

I'm old enough to remember the 1980s. Reagan ignored AIDS until the latter part of the decade in deference to his homophobic right wing base, and only got federal resources involved when it was impossible to ignore in the latter part of the decade. Canada got things rolling in 1983 already.

I know it's tiresome when virtuous Canadians point out American shortfalls, but this was the reality on the ground then. While nobody can claim infallible friendliness to gay issues in the 1980s, Canada's lack of a major socially conservative voting bloc allowed it to pursue research and policy for AIDS a lot earlier than in the US. Reagan was rightly criticized for his criminal lack of action on AIDS.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm old enough to remember the 1980s. Reagan ignored AIDS until the latter part of the decade in deference to his homophobic right wing base, and only got federal resources involved when it was impossible to ignore in the latter part of the decade. Canada got things rolling in 1983 already.

I know it's tiresome when virtuous Canadians point out American shortfalls, but this was the reality on the ground then. While nobody can claim infallible friendliness to gay issues in the 1980s, Canada's lack of a major socially conservative voting bloc allowed it to pursue research and policy for AIDS a lot earlier than in the US. Reagan was rightly criticized for his criminal lack of action on AIDS.

But can we agree that "dragged his feet on AIDS" and "tried to destroy the black community with AIDS" are not exactly interchangeable?

Even in Canada, IIRC what I've read about it, it was also originally considered a "gay problem" and not really a pressing issue for "ordinary" people. I expect this has been the case in all countries back then - no governments were particularly eager to spend funds on helping their gay communities back in the 1980s.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is a tangent but that's a good example of a Wikipedia article that is packed with facts yet likely to give a warped perspective on its subject matter.

I'm sure you're correct, but I just want to clarify that I did not read anything in there beyond the first sentence.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm not surprised at all. What you say also matches both someone123's experience (shared earlier in this thread) and also my own (having been somewhat involved in the high-tech startup of close friends of mine a while ago, I'm well aware it's going to be a very different type of employee in this world - as for ours, at first sight I would guess that little company's average employee education level was somewhere between MSc and PhD).

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is another problem with racial profiling that is very much self-inflicted by racial minorities themselves..........colourism.

Racial minorities have a long history of putting a price tag on the the tone of their own skin. The lighter your skin, the more accepted you are and this is entrenched in their own value systems. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go to Latin America, India, Africa or African Americans cities and see for themselves how darker skinned people {especially women} are treated by their own racial/ethnic groups. In fact this is vastly more prevalent in racial minorities than it is with Caucasians who often view darker skin tones as somewhat exotic like how European men get hot and bothered over Spanish and Italian women.

How can these racial groups scream racism when their own societies/communities openly discriminate against their own people due to the colour of their skin?

I;m surprised my post hasn't garnered any responses. Perhaps I hit a nerve?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I;m surprised my post hasn't garnered any responses. Perhaps I hit a nerve?

An inconvenient truth perhaps? That distracts from "the message"?

There is a guy I know* who is a Lebanese Christian. Definitely visible minority as he is on the much darker side for Lebanese guys in terms of skin tone. And in his openly stated "rules for dating my daughter" he says "no blacks and no Muslims".


*Actually I consider him a friend, but some people here get annoyed at my references to friends from different horizons. But I've been to dinner at his place several times, and he's been to my place for dinner too. I'd call that a friend.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

An inconvenient truth perhaps? That distracts from "the message"?

There is a guy I know* who is a Lebanese Christian. Definitely visible minority as he is on the much darker side for Lebanese guys in terms of skin tone. And in his openly stated "rules for dating my daughter" he says "no blacks and no Muslims". [/I]

Given the religious and ethnic tension that existed in Lebanon within living memory, his prohibition on Muslim dating may be understandable, but his attitudes towards blacks are more difficult to fathom. That sounds more purely prejudicial.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Given the religious and ethnic tension that existed in Lebanon within living memory, his prohibition on Muslim dating may be understandable, but his attitudes towards blacks are more difficult to fathom. That sounds more purely prejudicial.

You're correct in both cases, though the enlightened way is that even if a member of Group X raped and murdered a member of your family, you're not supposed to harbour prejudices against other innocent members of Group X simply because of that fact.

[milomilo]

I can't say I'd be any different if I lived in a war torn place where conflict went down ethnic lines. It's easy for us to be moral when the other ethnic group isn't literally killing you because of your own ethnic group. Similarly, I wouldn't much judge an elderly American veteran that still hated the Japanese, after having gone through what they did in the Pacific.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're correct in both cases, though the enlightened way is that even if a member of Group X raped and murdered a member of your family, you're not supposed to harbour prejudices against other innocent members of Group X simply because of that fact.

...what? You say "enlightened way" like it's some SJW construct being forced down your throat. The only time my family has ever encountered criminal activity was a white guy rummaging through our garage. At no point was his ethnicity ever on my parents' minds, but you bet it would be if he was black or brown. He had the privilege of being seen as an individual rather than a representative of "Group X".

As for "colourism" in ethnic communities, well yeah, white supremacy naturally comes with non-whites wanting to be white. Some will even lower their standards to date a white person. When white supremacy goes by the wayside, so will these gross practices.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Architype

The referenced community was not entirely black, and was bulldozed for construction of a freeway/viaduct (the 20th century freeway mania phase), like such communities elsewhere for similar reasons, not because it was black. This was an alley of only two or three blocks. There is not much in the history of BC for African Canadians to protest about specifically. The protests here are more in support of the real problems elsewhere.

Yeah that whole construct seems to have come from earnest university grads looking for a grievance. I saw very few protestors who could have been considered members of “Vancouver historical black community’. More like the usual rag tag band who show show up at any protest. The lowlight was watching them abuse a reporter of Japanese descent who more than likely had family interned during WWII and had far more claim to grievance than them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I can't say I'd be any different if I lived in a war torn place where conflict went down ethnic lines. It's easy for us to be moral when the other ethnic group isn't literally killing you because of your own ethnic group. Similarly, I wouldn't much judge an elderly American veteran that still hated the Japanese, after having gone through what they did in the Pacific.

Yeah, well he has personal "armed conflict" experience with the group in question.

He has a picture of Bashir Gémayel (if some people know who that is) on his living room wall and in his wallet, and wears the symbol of his former military group on a chain around his neck.

I don't think I am outing him by saying any of this BTW. From what I gather this is fairly typical of quite a few Lebanese Christian men of his generation in Ottawa and Gatineau.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

As for "colourism" in ethnic communities, well yeah, white supremacy naturally comes with non-whites wanting to be white. Some will even lower their standards to date a white person. When white supremacy goes by the wayside, so will these gross practices.

Yes, of course. For example, historic Japanese prejudice against Chinese and Koreans was the fault of Europeans thousands of kilometres away!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

...what? You say "enlightened way" like it's some SJW construct being forced down your throat. The only time my family has ever encountered criminal activity was a white guy rummaging through our garage. At no point was his ethnicity ever on my parents' minds, but you bet it would be if he was black or brown. He had the privilege of being seen as an individual rather than a representative of "Group X".

.

I actually agree with the enlightened principle. I am just realistic enough to know it is going to bump up against human nature in a messy way more often than not.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, well he has personal "armed conflict" experience with the group in question.

He has a picture of Bashir Gémayel (if some people know who that is) on his living room wall and in his wallet, and wears the symbol of his former military group on a chain around his neck.

I don't think I am outing him by saying any of this BTW. From what I gather this is fairly typical of quite a few Lebanese Christian men of his generation in Ottawa and Gatineau.

While I understand the motivations behind this person's opinions, I'm still not happy about them.

In my opinion, the tradeoff for coming to the New World is that the grievances of the old one are left behind. If you can't (or refuse to) leave them behind, I don't know if there's a spot for one here.

I get that it is human nature, but nursing sentiments like that doesn't advance the discussion. If suddenly a new continent appeared and thousands of Canadians emigrated to this new land, I'd hope they'd leave behind the undesirable baggage of their former country. Admittedly easier to do in our case, but still.