The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

These days its probably more like 65/35 anglo majority.

I wouldn't be surprised.

The two main communities (of comparable size) in the township of Russell are Embrun and a town also named Russell.

Traditionally Embrun was very predominantly francophone and Russell was very predominantly anglo.

But in recent years Embrun has gotten more anglo, whereas the demographics of Russell have remained more stable (ie anglo).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Ah yes, the Nuremberg Trials defense.

I suppose, but I am a strong adherent of the concept that you should take historical context into consideration when retrospectively assessing the motivations of an individual, or even a nation.

I don't want to appear as an apologist for the Acadian Expulsion, but the context is that the Acadians of (British controlled) Nova Scotia had never pledged allegiance to the British Crown, despite NS being under British control since 1713. This was a period of over 40 years. During this time, there was an informal alliance between the Acadians and the local Micmacs, and a series of raids, skirmishes and minor warfare took place in the colony against English settlers and colonial authorities, and the conflicts were nearly constant. The most recent dust-up was Father le Loutre's War, and this was fresh in the mind of Governor Lawrence when he ordered Monckton to supervise the expulsion. At the time, the British in NS felt under threat. Their numbers were not much different than the Acadian/Micmac alliance. Lawrence (rightly or wrongly) felt that the expulsion was necessary for the defence of Nova Scotia at the outset of the broader Seven Year's War.

What Lawrence did was wrong, but in the historical context of the time, you can understand his thought processes. Monckton got involved only because he was the commander of the expeditionary force that took Fort Beauséjour. He had over a thousand troops under contract with nothing to do, and Lawrence took this windfall of manpower in order to prosecute the expulsion effort. Lawrence ordered Monckton to do this. Monckton had little choice. If he had refused this order, he would have been court martialled and either executed or imprisoned. Either way he would have been ruined.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I suppose, but I am a strong adherent of the concept that you should take historical context into consideration when retrospectively assessing the motivations of an individual, or even a nation.

I don't want to appear as an apologist for the Acadian Expulsion, but the context is that the Acadians of (British controlled) Nova Scotia had never pledged allegiance to the British Crown, despite NS being under British control since 1713. This was a period of over 40 years. During this time, there was an informal alliance between the Acadians and the local Micmacs, and a series of raids, skirmishes and minor warfare took place in the colony, and the conflicts were nearly constant. The most recent dust-up was Father le Loutre's War, and this was fresh in the mind of Governor Lawrence when he ordered Monckton to supervise the expulsion. At the time, the British in NS felt under threat. Their numbers were not much different than the Acadian/Micmac alliance. Lawrence (rightly or wrongly) felt that the expulsion was necessary for the defence of Nova Scotia at the outset of the broader Seven Year's War.

What Lawrence did was wrong, but in the historical context of the time, you can understand his thought processes. Monckton got involved only because he was the commander of the expeditionary force that took Fort Beauséjour. He had over a thousand troops under contract, and Lawrence took this windfall of manpower in order to prosecute the expulsion effort. Lawrence ordered Monckton to do this. Monckton had little choice. If he had refused this order, he would have been court martialled and either executed or imprisoned. Either way he would have been ruined.

Going to anglophone schools for much of my youth (despite being Acadian in origin) we didn't cover it much in school so I mostly self-educated in my young adulthood on this issue out of personal interest.

Without the filtered view of teachers or professors, it really came out quite clearly to me that if there was a real villain in this story, it was Lawrence, not Monckton.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Going to anglophone schools for much of my youth (despite being Acadian in origin) we didn't cover it much in school so I mostly self-educated in my young adulthood on this issue out of personal interest.

Without the filtered view of teachers or professors, it really came out quite clearly to me that if there was a real villain in this story, it was Lawrence, not Monckton.

That jibes with my reading, too. Monckton actually was generally a "moderating" influence (that wasn't really appreciated by Lawrence). He granted amnesties (that Lawrence had him renege on) for example.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

That jibes with my reading, too. Monckton actually was generally a "moderating" influence (that wasn't really appreciated by Lawrence). He granted amnesties (that Lawrence had him renege on) for example.

Judging from the (many) history books I have read, Lawrence had a considerable amount of animus for Acadians, due to them being both French and "papists" (Catholics).

Even the powerful people in London urged him to cool his jets with the Acadians, but he won out in the end.

Still, he has quite a bit of stuff named for him, including (I am pretty sure) Lawrencetown in the Annapolis valley - ironically the region Acadians were deported from.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Going to anglophone schools for much of my youth (despite being Acadian in origin) we didn't cover it much in school so I mostly self-educated in my young adulthood on this issue out of personal interest.

Without the filtered view of teachers or professors, it really came out quite clearly to me that if there was a real villain in this story, it was Lawrence, not Monckton.

And even then, for the time, it wasn't really that bad. You think it was the norm back then to tolerate regular insurrections from duly conquered foreigners...?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

And even then, for the time, it wasn't really that bad. You think it was the norm back then to tolerate regular insurrections from duly conquered foreigners...?

Yes, I am aware of that.

[Acajack]

I am not excusing them, but as a mental exercise (only) people should look at residential schools from the prism of that specific era.

Was everyone involved really a willing enthusiastic party in an evil plan to destroy cultures and abuse indigenous kids or were they more guilty of having made an ill-advised tragic mistake that their contemporary knowledge did not allow them to clue in on?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

What Lawrence did was wrong, but in the historical context of the time, you can understand his thought processes. Monckton got involved only because he was the commander of the expeditionary force that took Fort Beauséjour. He had over a thousand troops under contract with nothing to do, and Lawrence took this windfall of manpower in order to prosecute the expulsion effort. Lawrence ordered Monckton to do this. Monckton had little choice. If he had refused this order, he would have been court martialled and either executed or imprisoned. Either way he would have been ruined.

It is interesting and sad to point out how much of it may have come down to Lawrence doing this in a certain window of opportunity. He was only governor from 1753-1755. Britain did not order the expulsion but in those days the transatlantic crossing took 6 weeks so governors did a lot on their own. From 1740-1749 Nova Scotia's governor was Jean-Paul Mascarene, a bilingual Huguenot.

Louisbourg fell in 1758. I would guess that pressure to expel the Acadians would have dropped after the fall of Louisbourg. It is true that there was near-constant skirmishing or full-on war back then in North America (and Europe) so people need to put these events in context. The failed Duc d'Anville expedition arrived in Halifax harbour in 1746; 11,000 men and 64 ships that could have easily conquered Nova Scotia and maybe Boston had they not had problems with storms and disease (the duke is still buried on George's Island). The first siege of Louisbourg was 1745 and then it was handed back to France in 1748 as part of the treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle. Then the Seven Year' War was 1756-1763.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is interesting and sad to point out how much of it may have come down to Lawrence doing this in a certain window of opportunity. He was only governor from 1753-1755. Britain did not order the expulsion but in those days the transatlantic crossing took 6 weeks so governors did a lot on their own. From 1740-1749 Nova Scotia's governor was Jean-Paul Mascarene, a bilingual Huguenot.

Louisbourg fell in 1758. I would guess that pressure to expel the Acadians would have dropped after the fall of Louisbourg. It is true that there was near-constant skirmishing or full-on war back then in North America (and Europe) so people need to put these events in context.

The Acadian Expulsion was a crime of opportunity on many levels. Lawrence was definitely the wrong man at the wrong time.

In addition to what you pointed out, the Monckton expeditionary force accomplished what they needed to do extraordinarily quickly, with both Forts Beauséjour and Gaspereaux capitulating quickly, and Fort LaTour abandoned and burned; all of a sudden Lawrence had over a thousand New England militiamen (bought and paid for for a full year) at his disposal with nothing to do.

It must have been a very easy decision for him to issue another edict demanding an unconditional oath of allegiance to the Crown, knowing full well that the Acadians would refuse, thus giving him a pretext to order their expulsion from the colony (on the basis of war and apprehended insurrection). An order like this really wasn't a whole lot different than the US and Canadian governments ordering the internment of Japanese North Americans during World War Two.

If only the French commander of Fort Beauséjour (de Vergor) had shown some spine in defending the fort rather than capitulating after a lucky British mortar round had destroyed the officers mess and killing one of the lower ranked French officers. If he had only occupied the British forces for 2-3 months rather than capitulating, the expulsion might not have happened.

[Acajack]

The Acadians also happened to be sitting on the best agricultural lands in all of Atlantic Canada (and perhaps in all of Canada east of the St. Lawrence valley in southernmost Quebec), in what is known today as the Annapolis Valley.

The British has been bringing their own settlers into other parts of Nova Scotia for a while but the newcomers had complained a lot about the quality of the land offered to them by colonial officials.

Lawrence and other British officials from both the UK and New England had had their eyes on the Acadians' land for quite some time.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, I am aware of that.

Oh, absolutely. I was perfectly aware you were aware

While I wouldn't say no to a big fat no-strings-attached Reparations Check if the taxpayers of this country really insisted on sending me one (I'm 50% Acadien, as you know), I am honestly quite sympathetic to the Brits who were our enemies and did their jobs. My ancestors would have done the exact same to them had the roles been reversed.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Oh, absolutely. I was perfectly aware you were aware

While I wouldn't say no to a big fat no-strings-attached Reparations Check if the taxpayers of this country really insisted on sending me one (I'm 50% Acadien, as you know), I am honestly quite sympathetic to the Brits who were our enemies and did their jobs. My ancestors would have done the exact same to them had the roles been reversed.

Your oppressor non-Acadian half could just cut a cheque to your historically oppressed Acadian half. No government involvement required. The net winner would be the bank.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Your oppressor non-Acadian half could just cut a cheque to your historically oppressed Acadian half. No government involvement required. The net winner would be the bank.

If his non-Acadian half were "British Canadian", that would work!

[lio45]

Acajack's correct - my other half isn't from here (my foreign-born father landed in this country as a kid) and in fact, could not possibly have had anything to do with Acadia since they weren't even French at the time. The non-Acadian 50% of my family tree were all at the time living outside the borders of France (in the duchies of Savoy and Lorraine, and other parts of today's Italy). My very first ancestors to become "French" on my dad's side happened in 1766 when the Kingdom of France annexed the Duchy of Lorraine.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Oh, absolutely. I was perfectly aware you were aware

While I wouldn't say no to a big fat no-strings-attached Reparations Check if the taxpayers of this country really insisted on sending me one (I'm 50% Acadien, as you know), I am honestly quite sympathetic to the Brits who were our enemies and did their jobs. My ancestors would have done the exact same to them had the roles been reversed.

My anglo interlocutors are often shocked to hear me say that Lord Durham was right after all. This sometimes comes after much discussion of franco-anglo issues where my views are quite clear.

Of course, now it's much too late for a Lord Durham solution, and I'd be staunchly opposed to it as would millions of others. The country couldn't survive something like that, actually.

[lio45]

... but my gf (an old-stock Canadian Anglo) could cut me a check. In fact, I have her online banking password, I could just grab my Reparations from her account.

[Acajack]

There are probably tens of thousands of people (especially in the Maritimes) who could have the British origin side of their body write a reparations cheque to the Acadian origin side of their body.

[Sarah89]

I'm really ashamed at the behavior of black Canadians. Just because something is going on in the U.S they TOO have to pretend it's happening here. Black people in Canada encounter less racism than other groups. We know how Muslims are treated here sometimes. Even Asians have gotten huge levels of discrimination with Covid-19 lately - and some of them (here, in this country) have been beaten up.

I never hear anyone speaking negatively about black people in Ontario.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Acajack's correct - my other half isn't from here (my foreign-born father landed in this country as a kid) and in fact, could not possibly have had anything to do with Acadia since they weren't even French at the time. The non-Acadian 50% of my family tree were all at the time living outside the borders of France (in the duchies of Savoy and Lorraine, and other parts of today's Italy). My very first ancestors to become "French" on my dad's side happened in 1766 when the Kingdom of France annexed the Duchy of Lorraine.

Yes but I am assuming he pledged allegiance to the Canadian colonizer government and maybe even the Queen herself! He might as well have been prodding the Acadians onto a ship with a bayonet.

(I'm just applying some standard modern logic here, stripping out any context I deem irrelevant.)