The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread - Page 75

Acajack · #**1481** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 12:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper

As a boy who grew up watching the Duke of Hazard the confederate flag had no special meaning to me.

I have not watched an episode in years. The impression I was left with was:
- Farm family with little money, tries to make ends meet by making moonshine.
- Farm kids like fast cars and are ok with getting into fist fights from time to time.
- Small town corrupt and incompetent police force are controlled by the rich business man in town.
- No one trusts the police force.

Mix those factors together and stir, each week you have a new episode that involves a few car chases on back country dirt roads, some escapes from the local police and the and scheme the big rich guy has to become richer.

.

I think we may be pretty much making the same point.

As a kid I only vaguely associated the flag on the top of the General Lee with the Confederacy and only had a vague notion of what that meant. It was mostly just a neat symbol of a show and characters that I liked. I never would have associated it with the oppression of black people and even as a youngster would have been horrified at the thought.

Kinda like some years ago when as a fully grown man I was wearing an Ecko Unld. (dress) shirt and this guy I worked asked me why I was wearing gangsta gear. I was totally unaware of the association.

Getting back to the Confederate flag on the General Lee, while my world-view and knowledge base have gotten more sophisticated since I was just a kid, it's totally within the realm of possibility that less evolved guys my age in Collingwood, Ontario or Wagga Wagga, NSW are still blissfully unaware of its symbolic meaning, and that for them it still only evokes Bo and Luke Duke flying over a river in a red car yelling "yee haw!" and of course Daisy in those nice shorts.

Acajack · #**1482** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 12:14 PM**

This is going on in a semi-exurban, semi-rural township about half an hour east of Ottawa.

FYI the population there is roughly 50% anglophone and 50% francophone. (Though that doesn't seem to be influencing the debate much.)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/russell-township-slave-trader-name-change-1.5608450

casper · #**1483** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 12:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is going on in a semi-exurban, semi-rural township about half an hour east of Ottawa.

FYI the population there is roughly 50% anglophone and 50% francophone. (Though that doesn't seem to be influencing the debate much.)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/russell-township-slave-trader-name-change-1.5608450

They could rename the town after Bertrand Russell the British mathematician (there motives are harder to miscalculate

). Who campaigned against war.

If that does not work, there is no shortage of other Russells that are less offensive. Picking another Russell saves the taxpays the cost of buying new stationary.

On a more serious note the town council should be able to simply pass a resolution saying we don't want to honour that Russell by naming the town after him. Going forward Russell is simply the name of the town and it has no association with anyone living or dead.

kwoldtimer · #**1484** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 12:46 PM**

How about political scientist Peter Russell? He's OC.
Or Russel Peters? He's sometimes funny.
Or maybe name it in honour of Russell, Manitoba.

casper · #**1485** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 12:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

How about political scientist Peter Russell? He's OC.
Or Russel Peters? He's sometimes funny.
Or maybe name it in honour of Russell, Manitoba.

Naming it in honor of Russell, Manitoba would be weird as Russell (MB) is named after John Russell, 6th Duke of Bedford (per Wikipedia).

Acajack · #**1486** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 12:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper

They could rename the town after Bertrand Russell the British mathematician (there motives are harder to miscalculate

). Who campaigned against war.

If that does not work, there is no shortage of other Russells that are less offensive. Picking another Russell saves the taxpays the cost of buying new stationary.

On a more serious note the town council should be able to simply pass a resolution saying we don't want to honour that Russell by naming the town after him. Going forward Russell is simply the name of the town and it has no association with anyone living or dead.

Both suggestions have been floated. I suspect that instead of finding a more palatable Russell that the second highlighted option is the way they will go.

And I think this will be the approach in a lot of places too.

If you pick someone like Bertrand Russell who appears innocuous at the moment, who knows if at some point in the future some post-mortem allegation might come out about him? Then you're into the same quagmire again.

Of course, this measure probably won't placate the most adamant of the activists for whom the name of Individual X on a city or a street or whatever is alleged to be a daily reminder of their mistreatment, but it's not written down anywhere that they always have to get their way.

I guess we shall see.

MonctonRad · #**1487** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course, this measure probably won't placate the most adamant of the activists for whom the name of Individual X on a city or a street or whatever is alleged to be a daily reminder of their mistreatment, but it's not written down anywhere that they always have to get their way.

Indeed.

For the more professional of the activists, there will always be "more work to do", and nothing will ever be enough. These people should be ignored if at all possible.

Keeping the name of the township, but disavowing it's association with that particular person seems like an acceptable solution to me.

kwoldtimer · #**1488** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper

Naming it in honor of Russell, Manitoba would be weird as Russell (MB) is named after John Russell, 6th Duke of Bedford (per Wikipedia).

His (post slavery) son, Alexander, no? In any event, I'd go for one of the Canadians.

Truenorth00 · #**1489** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is going on in a semi-exurban, semi-rural township about half an hour east of Ottawa.

FYI the population there is roughly 50% anglophone and 50% francophone. (Though that doesn't seem to be influencing the debate much.)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/russell-township-slave-trader-name-change-1.5608450

Remember what Kitchener used to be called? If people want to change the name of their town, I'd say that is the perogative of those residents.

kwoldtimer · #**1490** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Remember what Kitchener used to be called? If people want to change the name of their town, I'd say that is the perogative of those residents.

Not a good example of a municipal name change being a "prerogative of those residents".

Acajack · #**1491** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Remember what Kitchener used to be called? If people want to change the name of their town, I'd say that is the perogative of those residents.

Of course. I have not expressed a view yay or nay.

MonctonRad · #**1492** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:24 PM**

The one British colonialist I have the most difficulty with is Cecil Rhodes. His conduct in Africa was pretty atrocious, but he was a great benefactor back in the UK.

I wonder how much longer his scholarships will continue to be named after him? Or, will they continue to allow this legacy as a form of atonement, similar to the Nobel Prizes (despite what Alfred Nobel did).

Acajack · #**1493** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The one British colonialist I have the most difficulty with is Cecil Rhodes. His conduct in Africa was pretty atrocious, but he was a great benefactor back in the UK.

I wonder how much longer his scholarships will continue to be named after him? Or, will they continue to allow this legacy as a form of atonement, similar to the Nobel Prizes (despite what Alfred Nobel did).

Isn't the official story that Alfred Nobel did not intend for dynamite to be used in warfare (it was supposed to be for mining), and that he was so horrified at how many people died from his invention that he created the foundation and prizes?

MonctonRad · #**1494** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Isn't the official story that Alfred Nobel did not intend for dynamite to be used in warfare (it was supposed to be for mining), and that he was so horrified at how many people died from his invention that he created the foundation and prizes?

Possibly. I would have to look it up. It is certainly true however that he set up the Nobel Foundation as a personal attempt at atonement knowing what he had done. You have to respect that.

Rhodes on the other hand, when he set up his scholarship fund, did not do so as a personal act of contrition and atonement. The intention was certainly charity, but not atonement.

JHikka · #**1495** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:46 PM**

Still waiting on Moncton to be renamed.

Acajack · #**1496** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Still waiting on Moncton to be renamed.

Not sure what the view would be today, but I've mentioned before that the Acadians of the 1960s definitely had a different approach from today's SJWs.

They didn't just plant their new francophone university in the middle of the city named for Monc(k)ton, they also named the university itself after him (or at least the city named for him). Même chose.

The other potential name was of course Université de l'Acadie, but Université de Moncton won out in the end.

MonctonRad · #**1497** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Still waiting on Moncton to be renamed.

Well, at least the city is named Moncton and not Monckton (the proper spelling of the good general's surname).

If you research Robert Monckton's biography on line, he was actually a competent British officer during the Seven Years War, and what atrocities he was involved in were only because he was under orders from his superiors.

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/monckton_robert_4E.html

It is peculiar however that the principle Acadian university in Canada is named the Universite de Moncton. I realize the university is named after the city, and not the man, but still...........

MonctonRad · #**1498** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 1:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

The other potential name was of course Université de l'Acadie, but Université de Moncton won out in the end.

The problem with Universite de l'Acadie of course is that the anglophones already had Acadia University in Wolfville. It would have been too confusing.

There could have been other choices however. How about Universite Beauséjour or Universite Camille LeFebvre (the founder of College St-Joseph, the forerunner of UdeM)

JHikka · #**1499** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 2:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If you research Robert Monckton's biography on line, he was actually a competent British officer during the Seven Years War, and what atrocities he was involved in were only because he was under orders from his superiors.

Ah yes, the Nuremberg Trials defense.

CityTech · #**1500** Posted **Jun 15, 2020, 2:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is going on in a semi-exurban, semi-rural township about half an hour east of Ottawa.

FYI the population there is roughly 50% anglophone and 50% francophone. (Though that doesn't seem to be influencing the debate much.)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/russell-township-slave-trader-name-change-1.5608450

These days its probably more like 65/35 anglo majority.