The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Anecdotal but years ago was told by a police officer here in Calgary that they are trained to shoot people of they go for their tasers. Reasoning being once they’ve subdued the officer with a taser now they have their — as well.

That makes sense when you're alone. And that's why I've suggested before, on this thread, that they need to reconsider single patrols.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The next time anyone suggests that Canada's individual regional identities are more closely affiliated vertically with the US states under/next to them than with other places in Canada, can we just point to my post here to save time?

Current events show how much institutions and deeper cultural norms matter and they tend to be ignored in US-Canada cultural comparisons. I'm sitting in a young province that's physically nearly identical to the state that's a 1 hour drive from here but across the border there are 10x more covid cases.

I think the biggest reason why the "vertical regions" meme is so strong is that the natural environment is the most noticeable feature of any region and those tend to run north-south in North America (West Coast vs. Rockies vs. Prairies vs. Great Lakes vs. East Coast). And on the Prairies the border is completely artificial. It is much less artificial in the eastern half of the country. For example, the St. Lawrence farming areas are separated from the Atlantic lowlands areas.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by someone123

Is this Confederate flag part of a significant pattern in Canada, population 37 million, or did it end up in the news precisely because it is unusual and the media thought it would attract attention?

It has long been around, but it would be hard to describe as “significant”. Of course if you were seeking attention at the moment ...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You were in the military and you think shooting a leg is easy? WTF?

Center of mass. You aim for the biggest target. Beat cops aren't Rambo ninja snipers. And because they are aiming centre of mass, is exactly why the emphasis should be on avoiding the use of force and maximizing the use of non-lethal tools when force is necessary.

You don't think that if someone with a knife or a hammer is moving towards me and refusing to stop, I can successfully spray them at legs height with a C7 in auto mode in a way that'll stop them? You think I would absolutely HAVE to aim for the chest instead, or else I'm the one who's dead? I disagree with you there.

BTW, I don't have that much of a problem with cops killing people who attack them. Mere hours ago, you disagreed with my position regarding those cops in Georgia - and now you seem to think someone who has a knife must be shot in the chest 4-6 times because that's the safest way to make sure you down them right away...?!?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the biggest reason why the "vertical regions" meme is so strong is that the natural environment is the most noticeable feature of any region and those tend to run north-south in North America (West Coast vs. Rockies vs. Prairies vs. Great Lakes vs. East Coast).

Lots of manmade characteristics are directly derived from local natural environment, though.

A Newfoundland fishing village and a Japanese fishing village would have a bunch of things in common, some of them arguably even cultural.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

You don't think that if someone with a knife or a hammer is moving towards me and refusing to stop, I can successfully spray them at legs height with a C7 in auto mode in a way that'll stop them? You think I would absolutely HAVE to aim for the chest instead, or else I'm the one who's dead? I disagree with you there.

Find me one range instructor who would agree with you. I'll wait. Aside from ricochet risk, there's a real risk you actually miss, especially when you're using a handgun, not a rifle. Gotta wonder how many times you actually fired that weapon when you were in.

Originally Posted by lio45

BTW, I don't have that much of a problem with cops killing people who attack them. Mere hours ago, you disagreed with my position regarding those cops in Georgia - and now you seem to think someone who has a knife must be shot in the chest 4-6 times because that's the safest way to make sure you down them right away...?!?

Big difference between someone firing a taser at range, at you while trying to run away, and a suspect advancing on you with a knife.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Lots of manmade characteristics are directly derived from local natural environment, though.

A Newfoundland fishing village and a Japanese fishing village would have a bunch of things in common, some of them arguably even cultural.

Yes, I completely agree. Although Canadians tend to view those environmental similarities as making Canada like the US and not like all other places on earth that have a similar environment. I think you should factor the global similarities out when making an "America Jr." argument.

The environment in the Maritimes is similar to Scandinavia and Hokkaido. Halifax's sister city in Japan is Hakodate, which truly is a "twin" in a bunch of ways (Hakodate even has a similar star-shaped fort built around the same time). This extends to stuff like diet, with traditional foods in the Maritimes including seaweed and mackerel.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Find me one range instructor who would agree with you. I'll wait. Aside from ricochet risk, there's a real risk you actually miss, especially when you're using a handgun, not a rifle. Gotta wonder how many times you actually fired that weapon when you were in.

If you're on a busy street with bystanders everywhere around you, then yeah, that changes the scenario a bit, and maybe in that case you can justify 4-6 bullets in the chest over 4-6 bullets at legs height with some of them ricocheting. It wouldn't be the case for that Edmundston woman, though.

I already agreed with all instructors that _if_ you have decided you need deadly force in a split second or else it's you who'll die, then yes, aiming for the chest and firing a bunch of times is the safest and most reliable thing to do. I said that already in my reply to MonctonRad.

I don't see that the one and only thing a cop can possibly hope to do with their firearm is to kill the suspect dead.

And yes, I fired several different weapons countless times, mostly over one full summer, and occasionally over a few years. This was a while ago, of course, but I would still feel confident with a — facing someone who only has a knife, and am pretty sure I would find ways to not have to kill them immediately.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Out of the blue here, but:



The next time anyone suggests that Canada's individual regional identities are more closely affiliated vertically with the US states under/next to them than with other places in Canada, can we just point to my post here to save time?

People outside of southern Ontario seem to like to suggest that Ontario is more like Michigan and New York than Saskatchewan, but...no. I would presume that those people have never actually been to Detroit, Buffalo and Toronto to make the comparison.

Outside of Appalachia, it's largely a map of where Black people live.

The US is among the least racist places in the world (so is Canada).

Racism is being wrongly identified as the main culprit for disparate outcomes between groups.

[casper]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

The idea that the bulk of people with insecure financial futures can be trained to work in the tech sector is naive and unfounded.

White collar professional workers are generally performing well under the current economic framework. The top quintile is getting paid more than ever. There are issues related to burnout and such, of course, and it is historically unusual for the elite to be so industrious. But the opportunity is there for those skilled enough to take advantage of them. The elite are doing well.

But much of the working class likely cannot be trained to become doctors, engineers, programmers, etc. Hence you have labor shortages and high unemployment side by side in many places.

Their only futures lie in the gig economy and pink collar work, the conditions for which are insecure and undignified. "Essential workers" to be thrown to the wolves, but in an increasingly stratified society and economic system, they won't get compensated 1/8th of a tax lawyer who can help fortune 500 companies avoid taxes.

That is the point I was making. There is a narrative out there that this new generation lacks opportunity and is being suppressed. That is false. Some are finding lots of opportunity others are not. This was the same with previous generations. Those that picked an in-demand area to study are find well paying jobs. In past generations there may have been more government and big-company union jobs that did not require an more advanced education than today.

The issue this generation has is some unreasonable expectations. I have hired new-grads and see it them. There is an inability to focus, not because they can't but because they have not been given the opportunity to learn how. Simon Sink theory is the same addictive chemicals given off with alcohol is also given from using social media. Basically an added dimension to addiction.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Is this Confederate flag part of a significant pattern in Canada, population 37 million, or did it end up in the news precisely because it is unusual and the media thought it would attract attention?

A lot of Canadian boys grew up watching Dukes of Hazzard too. Sounds stupid but it is no doubt a factor.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by casper

That is the point I was making. There is a narrative out there that this new generation lacks opportunity and is being suppressed. That is false. Some are find lots of opportunity others are not. This was the same with previous generations. Those that picked an in-demand area to study are find well paying jobs. In past generations there may have been more government and big-company union jobs that today.

The issue this generation has is some unreasonable expectations. I have hired new-grads and see it them. There is an inability to focus. Simon Sink theory is the same addictive chemicals given off with alcohol is also given from using social media. Basically an added dimension to addiction.

Two things to note, especially as it relates to the bolded because I think that deserves more attention:

1. Typical middle class jobs of previous generations have gone away. We're seeing the middle class fracture, with the upper middle class soaring away and the middle and lower middle class joining the lower class in a highly insecure pink collar / gigs economy. This has wider societal implications, with the top quintile running away and the rest struggling.

2. Of course, any one should just decide in high school -- yea, quantum mechanics, looks like there is demand in that field, let me just become a quantum mechanics expert?? Please understand that in all generations there are people who simply do not have the cognitive abilities, athletic abilities and/or personality traits required to work in certain fields. It is easy for above average IQ individuals who inherit the right personality traits such as conscientiousness to pretend that anyone could simply do what they did.

The economy increasingly rewards things like intelligence that are not distributed equally among humans. The myth that anyone can do anything becomes an instrument to smear those who have not been successful as failures who deserve their unfortunate lot in life.

[casper]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Two things to note, especially as it relates to the bolded because I think that deserves more attention:

1. Typical middle class jobs of previous generations have gone away. We're seeing the middle class fracture, with the upper middle class soaring away and the middle and lower middle class joining the lower class in a highly insecure pink collar / gigs economy. This has wider societal implications, with the top quintile running away and the rest struggling.

2. Of course, any one should just decide in high school -- yea, quantum mechanics, looks like there is demand in that field, let me just become a quantum mechanics expert?? Please understand that in all generations there are people who simply do not have the cognitive abilities, athletic abilities and/or personality traits required to work in certain fields. It is easy for above average IQ individuals who inherit the right personality traits such as conscientiousness to pretend that anyone could simply do what they did.

The economy increasingly rewards things like intelligence that are not distributed equally among humans. The myth that anyone can do anything becomes an instrument to smear those who have not been successful as failures who deserve their unfortunate lot in life.

I agree. There is an entire set of unreasonable expectations created by parents and teachers in grade school. There is nothing wrong with becoming a plumber or electrician (and you may make just as much as a nuclear physicist). Participation badges and the mindset of you can do anything is part of the problem. Through elementary school and early high school kids should figure out what they are good at and what they not. When I was in school many years ago I was a crappy athlete but did well with math.

I would also argue that the relationship between intelligence and economic reward is not as clear cut. I live in Vancouver and some of my high schools friends that did exceptionally well went into selling houses.

As a society I would like to think we have evolved away from race being a factor. Vancouver historically had a very small black community but it was closely tied to railway where many of colour worked as porters.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

It's a hypocritical world we live in. People are calling for equality, but if you are a police officer, they want to lynch you, so I question the motives of some of these protesters.

There are always extremists on all sides. Don't let them discredit the majority viewpoint.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A lot of Canadian boys grew up watching Dukes of Hazzard too. Sounds stupid but it is no doubt a factor.

As a boy who grew up watching the Duke of Hazard the confederate flag had no special meaning to me.

I have not watched an episode in years. The impression I was left with was:
- Farm family with little money, tries to make ends meet by making moonshine.
- Farm kids like fast cars and are ok with getting into fist fights from time to time.
- Small town corrupt and incompetent police force are controlled by the rich business man in town.
- No one trusts the police force.

Mix those factors together and stir, each week you have a new episode that involves a few car chases on back country dirt roads, some escapes from the local police and the and scheme the big rich guy has to become richer.

Canada (and the UK) were neutral during the US civil war. There are reports on confederate ships illegally resupplying in Atlantic Canada but it sounds like more of an opportunistic activity rather than real support. The underground railway in the US lead to Canada as the ultimate destination. If anything I think the desire of the colonial governments in Canada as to not be dragged into what was an internal US issue. Some argue that the civil war did shape how Canada was created in that civil writes were downplayed and an emphasis on community rights and oversight of the government through a senate.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A lot of Canadian boys grew up watching Dukes of Hazzard too. Sounds stupid but it is no doubt a factor.

The Dukes were totally 100% antifa. I will fight anyone who disagrees.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by casper

As a boy who grew up watching the Duke of Hazard the confederate flag had no special meaning to me.

I have not watched an episode in years. The impression I was left with was:
- Farm family with little money, tries to make ends meet by making moonshine.
- Farm kids like fast cars and are ok with getting into fist fights from time to time.
- Small town corrupt and incompetent police force are controlled by the rich business man in town.
- No one trusts the police force.

Mix those factors together and stir, each week you have a new episode that involves a few car chases on back country dirt roads, some escapes from the local police and the and scheme the big rich guy has to become richer.

yeah, it was all that and this:

dailymail



And there was some semi-retarded greasemonkey named cooter

[urbandreamer]

After reading that Medium article last night I found https://www.reddit.com/r/CapHillAutonomousZone/

Look at it as a way for the rich kids to dominate the race discussion yet again, turning the working class anger into a chillout zone: the raver generation's kids are having their instagram tiktok moment. Like my generation's PLUR, the net result will be several future entrepreneurs, some hippy intellectuals and many working class dreamers. There will be books movies and commercial products spun out of this idealism.

[casper]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

yeah, it was all that and this:

dailymail



And there was some semi-retarted greasemonkey named cooter

Yes, the show had certain aesthetics.....

A political statement about the south and the black community it was not.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by casper

If anything I think the desire of the colonial governments in Canada as to not be dragged into what was an internal US issue.

The colonies were just a part of the British empire back then so they were neutral because Britain was neutral. All of the European powers were neutral. Trade with any Southern port was legal but it was blockaded by the Union so there was a risk of losing ships and cargo. The Confederacy mostly traded with the Caribbean through Nassau or Havana.

The British empire banned the selling of slaves in 1807 and slavery in all colonies in 1833.

Nova Scotia at one point had many slaves but the timing was different from the United States. In 1750, NS might have been 10-15% slaves, and from about 1750-1780 many settlers arrived with slaves. By the time of the American Revolution most blacks who came to NS were free, and it seems the elected assembly of the province never made slavery legal. One important event was James MacGregor, a Presbyterian minister in Pictou NS, publishing an anti-slavery letter in 1788. By then there was public pressure for slave owners to free their slaves.

There is a bit about the legal history in NS on Wikipedia:

While many blacks who arrived in Nova Scotia during the American Revolution were free, others were not.[7] Black slaves also arrived in Nova Scotia as the property of White American Loyalists. In 1772, prior to the American Revolution, Britain outlawed the slave trade in the British Isles followed by the Knight v. Wedderburn decision in Scotland in 1778. This decision, in turn, influenced the colony of Nova Scotia. Led by Uniacke, in 1787, 1789 and again on January 11, 1808 the Nova Scotian legislature refused to legalize slavery.[8][9][10] Uniacke defeated the efforts of James De Lancey to have slavery legally recognized in Nova Scotia. (The Slave Trade Act outlawed the slave trade in the British Empire in 1807 and the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 outlawed slavery altogether.)

Very different from the Southern US even in the 1780's.