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  #1421  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Meanwhile two indigenous people have been killed by police in two weeks in little old New Brunswick.

Both cases are under investigation.
Indeed. I was going to post about this, but other things got in the way.

Both of these incidents are very unfortunate, especially given the current socio-political climate on the continent, and I think every single friggin' police officer in the country should be thinking things over three times before unholstering their firearm at the present time.

The incident with the aboriginal woman in Edmundston is particularly worrisome. The story is that she had recently moved to Edmundston from BC to be closer to her family, and told her boyfriend in Toronto (by telephone) that she was worried that somebody was stalking her. Her boyfriend then called the Edmundston city police to conduct a wellness check on her, and when the constable arrived, she opened the door with a knife in her hand, he felt threatened, and then shot her five times!!

1) - if the woman felt harassed, it is understandable that she might be carrying a knife when she opened the door.
2) - the policeman obviously grossly overreacted.
3) - why should it be the police conducting a "wellness check." Maybe they should just have called her rather than showing up at her door unannounced. Maybe it should have been a social worker doing the check, and not the police.

I get the fact that police might feel under siege, especially since six Maritime officers have lost their lives in incidents (Moncton, Fredericton, Portapique) over the last five years, but I really hate their current practice of "shooting to kill" if they feel threatened. This is uncalled for and retraining needs to be carried out. We can't abandon the idea of "community policing". I can think of several other incidents over the last several years (including two in Moncton) where suicidal, disturbed and or homeless people have been shot and killed by police in the line of duty. It isn't right when the rate of death-by-cop outstrips the actual homicide rate in a community. Something is obviously wrong when that happens.

The second recent incident involving an aboriginal man near the Miramichi might be somewhat more understandable. Again, a knife was involved, and the man was apparently agitated (mental health issues of recent onset), and at least an attempt was made to use non lethal force prior to discharging the firearm.

Understandable however is not necessarily the same thing as justifiable. While the constable may have shot this man in self defence, the question needs to be asked if the responding officers were well enough equipped to deal with a distraught and unpredictable individual. Again, better training on how to deal with such a situation on the part of the police should be considered, and perhaps more appropriate individuals (social workers) should have been involved.

The police have a very tough job to perform, and we should respect their efforts in maintaining a civil society, but the police should not be the first line responder to situations where criminality is not the first intent. For the mentally ill, the vulnerable, the panhandlers, vagrants and the homeless, there should be a rapid response social work team instead, who could work with police back-up in potentially threatening or hostile situations. This would be far more appropriate, and would save lives.

I should note that the aboriginal leadership in NB have reacted with commendable restraint to both these situations, asking their communities not to demonstrate or raise blockades, but instead to hold healing marches and peaceful protests. Kudos to them,
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  #1422  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 2:24 PM
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The whole business of sending the police as first responders in cases of mental distress needs a rethink, istm. As back-up, perhaps, but they are not competent to deal with the situations in which they keep finding themselves.
     
     
  #1423  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 3:06 PM
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The police have a very tough job to perform, and we should respect their efforts in maintaining a civil society, but the police should not be the first line responder to situations where criminality is not the first intent. For the mentally ill, the vulnerable, the panhandlers, vagrants and the homeless, there should be a rapid response social work team instead, who could work with police back-up in potentially threatening or hostile situations. This would be far more appropriate, and would save lives.
very well put. I agree.
     
     
  #1424  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post

The police have a very tough job to perform, and we should respect their efforts in maintaining a civil society, but the police should not be the first line responder to situations where criminality is not the first intent. For the mentally ill, the vulnerable, the panhandlers, vagrants and the homeless, there should be a rapid response social work team instead, who could work with police back-up in potentially threatening or hostile situations. This would be far more appropriate, and would save lives.

I should note that the aboriginal leadership in NB have reacted with commendable restraint to both these situations, asking their communities not to demonstrate or raise blockades, but instead to hold healing marches and peaceful protests. Kudos to them,
I think that this is an extremely reasonable solution if it is executed well. I know that people aren't going to like this statement: but to me, this could almost serve as a separate branch of the police department sort of like the UPP in Brazil (bad example, I know lol)?

Should a socially sensitive enforcement team have the power to detain someone though?
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  #1425  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 3:31 PM
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We already do elements of this. For example, we don't have armed meter maids to give out tickets. At least between Canada and US, this is a space we certainly have more flexibility.

The best point I heard was on a radio interview with a police chief who said, "people expect cops to respond 24/7, but nobody expect social workers and mental health workers to be available 24/7". He's right, we should have those. Maybe even base them in police stations to ride along when necessary. Let's not forget the flip side of this is the cops who get mental health issues because they had to take a life or suffer legal consequences for the wrong choice. The Sammy Yatim shooting comes to mind. If that cop had a taser and maybe a crisis worker with him, it might have ended very differently.
     
     
  #1426  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post

The best point I heard was on a radio interview with a police chief who said, "people expect cops to respond 24/7, but nobody expect social workers and mental health workers to be available 24/7". He's right, we should have those. Maybe even base them in police stations to ride along when necessary. Let's not forget the flip side of this is the cops who get mental health issues because they had to take a life or suffer legal consequences for the wrong choice. The Sammy Yatim shooting comes to mind. If that cop had a taser and maybe a crisis worker with him, it might have ended very differently.
Cops will fight tooth and nail for armed partners - which I totally agree with. I don't think that we can fit a third person into a standard police vehicle without taking away an armed partner.

I do think that having a socially sensitive enforcement team as a separate branch like the UPP or Transit Police (as is the case in Vancouver) will allow them to effectively share resources with the police authorities, escalate to armed officers if needed, and effectively address socially sensitive issues.

Would a socially sensitive enforcement team escalate situations to armed officers if things get violent? Or only if a weapon is involved?
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  #1427  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by scryer View Post
I think that this is an extremely reasonable solution if it is executed well. I know that people aren't going to like this statement: but to me, this could almost serve as a separate branch of the police department sort of like the UPP in Brazil (bad example, I know lol)?

Should a socially sensitive enforcement team have the power to detain someone though?
I would not make it a separate branch of the police department. I would create a separate branch of the social services organisation or health region that has responsibility for mental health issues, they may require police powers, which is fine. Here in BC, outside of the city police there are over 20 other organisations with people who have the same powers as police officers.

That team does not need to be uniformed (and if they are it should look nothing like a traditional police officer).
     
     
  #1428  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 4:17 PM
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I think race has just been a spark and the underlying causes and ideals go well beyond it. You've got a situation where many people were being told to stay at home indefinitely. Lots of young people being affected in a manner that will materially affect their already gloomy long term prospects. $1,200 one time payment is a joke (even the $2k x 4 months is insufficient compensation). Very low savings and high debt. First gen to be poorer than parents Etc etc

The cultural revolution is somewhat scary. I feel like it is cult like and Marxist in some ways. Everyone is being forced to accept one narrative and the failure to uphold this narrative will get you excommunicated.

Race is the distraction here. The comfortable topic on which to perform wokeness. Even the corporate world is behind it. Things go much deeper.
     
     
  #1429  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I think race has just been a spark and the underlying causes and ideals go well beyond it. You've got a situation where many people were being told to stay at home indefinitely. Lots of young people being affected in a manner that will materially affect their already gloomy long term prospects. $1,200 one time payment is a joke (even the $2k x 4 months is insufficient compensation). Very low savings and high debt. First gen to be poorer than parents Etc etc

The cultural revolution is somewhat scary. I feel like it is cult like and Marxist in some ways. Everyone is being forced to accept one narrative and the failure to uphold this narrative will get you excommunicated.

Race is the distraction here. The comfortable topic on which to perform wokeness. Even the corporate world is behind it. Things go much deeper.
This perspective that the new generation is worse off that previous generations is complex and probably not accurate.

I work in the tech sector. In Vancouver and Victoria we can't find enough people. The start salaries are great by any standard. So there are opportunities out there.

Simon Sinek (who does a lot of management consulting to the corporate world) has some good videos on how to integrate millennial into a corporate organisation.
     
     
  #1430  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Meanwhile two indigenous people have been killed by police in two weeks in little old New Brunswick.

Both cases are under investigation.
But a poster here just told us there's no systemic racism in Canada or the US. Must have been quite the coincidence.
     
     
  #1431  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
The whole business of sending the police as first responders in cases of mental distress needs a rethink, istm. As back-up, perhaps, but they are not competent to deal with the situations in which they keep finding themselves.
That's a huge part of the "defund the police" idea.

I think the name is obviously a problem, but it does bring attention, and hopefully enough for people to actually read beyond the headline (good luck!).

Situations are dangerous, but cops roam in pairs now. Having a social worker and a police officer respond to stuff like this is the best of both worlds, and probably cheaper.
     
     
  #1432  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:22 PM
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This perspective that the new generation is worse off that previous generations is complex and probably not accurate.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates

The kids are fine.
     
     
  #1433  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:25 PM
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But a poster here just told us there's no systemic racism in Canada or the US. Must have been quite the coincidence.
Well, the two aboriginal shootings in NB within a week is likely at least a partial coincidence. Police shootings in NB are not a huge problem historically, and including these two, there have been about five total in the last five years (still way too many). None of the other three BTW were aboriginal.

Still, there is some racial bias in policing, and the police are still too quick to reach for their sidearms. Change is necessary.
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  #1434  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Indeed. I was going to post about this, but other things got in the way...

The incident with the aboriginal woman in Edmundston is particularly worrisome. The story is that she had recently moved to Edmundston from BC to be closer to her family, and told her boyfriend in Toronto (by telephone) that she was worried that somebody was stalking her. Her boyfriend then called the Edmundston city police to conduct a wellness check on her, and when the constable arrived, she opened the door with a knife in her hand, he felt threatened, and then shot her five times!!

1) - if the woman felt harassed, it is understandable that she might be carrying a knife when she opened the door.
2) - the policeman obviously grossly overreacted.
3) - why should it be the police conducting a "wellness check." Maybe they should just have called her rather than showing up at her door unannounced. Maybe it should have been a social worker doing the check, and not the police.

I get the fact that police might feel under siege, especially since six Maritime officers have lost their lives in incidents (Moncton, Fredericton, Portapique) over the last five years, but I really hate their current practice of "shooting to kill" if they feel threatened. This is uncalled for and retraining needs to be carried out....

...The police have a very tough job to perform, and we should respect their efforts in maintaining a civil society, but the police should not be the first line responder to situations where criminality is not the first intent. For the mentally ill, the vulnerable, the panhandlers, vagrants and the homeless, there should be a rapid response social work team instead, who could work with police back-up in potentially threatening or hostile situations. This would be far more appropriate, and would save lives...
This assessment is spot on. I couldn't for the life of me think why the RCMP thought doing a wellness check in the middle of the night on someone worried about a stalker was a good idea. I wonder if the officer was even female?

In the absence of social worker 1st responders, the RCMP and other police should just decline to do wellness checks. Their interaction with the mentally ill should be limited to when those with issues are harming others or causing public disorder.
     
     
  #1435  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
3) - why should it be the police conducting a "wellness check." Maybe they should just have called her rather than showing up at her door unannounced. Maybe it should have been a social worker doing the check, and not the police.
70% of those killed by police in Canada between 2000 and 2018 had mental health or substance abuse problems:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/mos...alth-or-substance-abuse-issues-1.4602916
     
     
  #1436  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
This perspective that the new generation is worse off that previous generations is complex and probably not accurate.

I work in the tech sector. In Vancouver and Victoria we can't find enough people. The start salaries are great by any standard. So there are opportunities out there.

Simon Sinek (who does a lot of management consulting to the corporate world) has some good videos on how to integrate millennial into a corporate organisation.
The idea that the bulk of people with insecure financial futures can be trained to work in the tech sector is naive and unfounded.

White collar professional workers are generally performing well under the current economic framework. The top quintile is getting paid more than ever. There are issues related to burnout and such, of course, and it is historically unusual for the elite to be so industrious. But the opportunity is there for those skilled enough to take advantage of them. The elite are doing well.

But much of the working class likely cannot be trained to become doctors, engineers, programmers, etc. Hence you have labor shortages and high unemployment side by side in many places.

Their only futures lie in the gig economy and pink collar work, the conditions for which are insecure and undignified. "Essential workers" to be thrown to the wolves, but in an increasingly stratified society and economic system, they won't get compensated 1/8th of a tax lawyer who can help fortune 500 companies avoid taxes.
     
     
  #1437  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:46 PM
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Guys. It's all about heritage:

https://www.thestar.com/amp/news/gta/202...llingwood-sparks-petition-to-ban-it.html

You know that long history of fighting the Union in Collingwood.
     
     
  #1438  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by monctonrad View Post
still, there is some racial bias in policing, and the police are still too quick to reach for their sidearms. Change is necessary.
100%!
     
     
  #1439  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Guys. It's all about heritage:

https://www.thestar.com/amp/news/gta/202...llingwood-sparks-petition-to-ban-it.html

You know that long history of fighting the Union in Collingwood.
You write as though Canada didn't exist at the time of the U.S. Civil War and that there weren't strong opinions about it in Canada West. I wouldn't presume to say how Canadians of the time broke down with respect to the war or if any flag-waving was involved, since I really don't know, but my hunch is that opinion wasn't 100% in favour of the Union. The U.K., of which Canada was part, was fairly sympathetic to the South (a fact that probably had some influence on the Fenian Raids).
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  #1440  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2020, 6:22 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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You write as though Canada didn't exist at the time of the U.S. Civil War and that there weren't strong opinions about it in Canada West. I wouldn't presume to say how Canadians of the time broke down with respect to the war or if any flag-waving was involved, since I really don't know, but my hunch is that opinion wasn't 100% in favour of the Union. The U.K., of which Canada was part, was fairly sympathetic to the South (a fact that probably had some influence on the Fenian Raids).
And you write as though the folks flying the Confederate flags in Canada are fully knowledgeable of that history and showing affinity for....the Fenians?

If they really are showing affinity for historical American Confederacy than I guess we do have a problem with anti-black racism in Canada after all. Imagine showing sympathy for a pro-slavery rebellion, in 2020.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Jun 14, 2020 at 7:34 PM.
     
     
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