The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Weird, Halifax destroyed their local black community, too. Must be a coincidence.

This is such a distortion. Africville had 400 people at its peak. Halifax today has 15,000 black residents.

Africville was replaced by public housing projects in the 1960's, like Mulgrave Park, which were closer into town and had much better amenities than what they replaced. They had the usual urban renewal and public housing problems of course. The most populated slum clearance areas in 1950's Halifax had mostly white or mixed populations (Cogswell and Scotia Square area). Urban renewal was trendy back then and much of the city was demolished.

Hogan's Alley was demolished for the Georgia Viaduct. I don't know what the motivations of the city back then truly were but it's not exactly true to say that it was the black area that got torn down. It had a diverse population, containing a black community within it, and Chinatown ended up being saved from demolition for highway development. So it is probably a more nuanced history than a lot of people let on.

People really like their history to be black and white!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This actually reinforces my point.

They all started out in this country getting treated crappy. And then went off into different directions.

What? No it doesn't. It shows a history of non-white persecution.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

It's a complete pile of nonsense.

The racism cause becomes the perfect agenda to moralize jealously.

Without jealously we would have more racism, therefore jealously is good.

It isn't any more complicated than that. The fact that you can so easily throw charges of racism at those who you are jealous of only adds to that fire.

Funny you post that, as most of what you say is complete nonsense.

Obviously there are huge class implications for this as well. Whites in power love a good race war between the lower classes. It doesn't mean racism doesn't exist.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is such a distortion. Africville had 400 people at its peak. Halifax today has 15,000 black residents.

Africville was replaced by public housing projects in the 1960's, like Mulgrave Park, which were closer into town and had much better amenities than what they replaced. They had the usual urban renewal and public housing problems of course. The most populated slum clearance areas in 1950's Halifax had mostly white or mixed populations (Cogswell and Scotia Square area). Urban renewal was trendy back then and much of the city was demolished.

Hogan's Alley was demolished for the Georgia Viaduct. I don't know what the motivations of the city back then truly were but it's not exactly true to say that it was the black area that got torn down. It had a diverse population, containing a black community within it, and Chinatown ended up being saved from demolition for highway development. So it is probably a more nuanced history than a lot of people let on.

Ugh. Poor whites, especially Irish, at the time didn't get much consideration anywhere - but to compare that to the gleeful, thoughtless, deliberate state of and destruction of Africville? These are not things we need to take personally. These are objective, obvious facts we all should be able to agree upon.

I'll share Lanier Phillips story every chance I can, I'm proud of it. It reflects the side of my people that I morally support. But I won't equate our burning Beothuk villages with the English or French burning Irish villages in Newfoundland. The motivations and the end result were pretty fucking different.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

It's a complete pile of nonsense.

We got rid of religion, we have entire generations of people who only understand pleasure as the only good.


They see subordination of any kind as a form of pleasure denial. It is no surprise that men/fathers/conservatives/cops are viewed upon as evil because they deny pleasure. This becomes especially true when you have populations of people who's fathers have been parentally castrated, by divorce, matriarchy, going to prison, lazy fathers etc.




People who are advocating for pleasure are good people who are against it are bad.

This idea these people are bothered by unfairness is a complete crock of shit.


In real terms people aren't jealous of queens kings and royals their status detaches them from being part of a persons reality.

People are jealous of their peers. This is why the phrase "they don't care about poor people, they hate rich people" exits.

It only make sense that if you have black cops direct peers of the criminals that it will only increase the resentment not decrease it.

If a person isn't in your social hierarchy you really can't be bothered by their success. Which is why high school reunions make most people wanna puke. While in contrast going to a rock concert/hockey game with have the reverse affect. When you are exposed to someone who's above outside your hierarchy it bizarrely unifies you with the people in your own.

Instead of dealing with feelings of jealously in much the same way you might deal with feeingls of bigotry they double down.

The racism cause becomes the perfect agenda to moralize jealously.

Without jealously we would have more racism, therefore jealously is good.

It isn't any more complicated than that. The fact that you can so easily throw charges of racism at those who you are jealous of only adds to that fire.

It's a witch hunt and nothing sums it up more perfectly the phrase "systemic/institutional racism". As it is a term racism when there is absolutely zero evidence to show that it even exists. It's a word that sounds smart and it even makes sense unless you look at the data for Nigerians/AA, or Indo Canadians(poorest group in canada) versus Indo Americans(richest).

It's a moving of the goal posts used to justify hate based politics.

The obvious thing to mention is that it doesn't apply to all.

No more than most conservatives are all that racist.


However unlike the right the left has no mechanism to deal with these corrupters and are in fact taking the lead from these people.

Ironically I think it is a reason moral leftists are so paranoid of the right, they see what is happening in their community and assume that behind closed doors its happening on the right.

Sorry but this is complete drivel.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is such a distortion. Africville had 400 people at its peak. Halifax today has 15,000 black residents.

Africville was replaced by public housing projects in the 1960's, like Mulgrave Park, which were closer into town and had much better amenities than what they replaced. They had the usual urban renewal and public housing problems of course. The most populated slum clearance areas in 1950's Halifax had mostly white or mixed populations (Cogswell and Scotia Square area). Urban renewal was trendy back then and much of the city was demolished.

Hogan's Alley was demolished for the Georgia Viaduct. I don't know what the motivations of the city back then truly were but it's not exactly true to say that it was the black area that got torn down. It had a diverse population, containing a black community within it, and Chinatown ended up being saved from demolition for highway development. So it is probably a more nuanced history than a lot of people let on.

People really like their history to be black and white!

If you say so.

The dean of Africville researchers, Dalhousie sociologist Donald Clairmont, sees the uprooting of Africville as the result of three factors converging in the late 1950s and 1960s: overt and hidden racism, the progressive impulse in favour of racial integration, and the rise of liberal-bureaucratic social reconstruction ideas.

https://web.archive.org/web/201802150245...le-an-epic-failure-in-urban-community-re

[MolsonExport]

The story of Africville is known across Canada, and continues to be the subject of research. It was Canada's answer to the bulldozing of swathes of St. Louis, etc. (replaced by the house of horrors known as Pruitt Igoe).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What? No it doesn't. It shows a history of non-white persecution.

Yes, it does.

Chinese-Canadians, Japanese-Canadians, Indo-Canadians, Afro-Canadians, etc. all got treated like crap because they were non-European.

For whatever reasons they reacted differently to that treatment and partly as a result, their respective situations are fairly different today.

That is precisely my point.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Ugh. Poor whites, especially Irish, at the time didn't get much consideration anywhere - but to compare that to the gleeful, thoughtless, deliberate state of and destruction of Africville? These are not things we need to take personally. These are objective, obvious facts we all should be able to agree upon.

I recommend watching original interviews of the residents and documentary footage from those days. I've seen hours and hours of original video and read lots of old written material.

People in the city were pulling their hair out over what to do about Africville. One of the precipitating events was that some children died because a family burned a car battery to heat their home.

There was no gleeful demolition of Africville. The residents were moved to public housing. It is not something we would do today but it was common to expropriate and demolish properties in the 1950's and 60's.

My other point is that it's inaccurate to say that Africville was Halifax's "black community". There are many different historical black or mixed areas in the city and in nearby suburbs. Urban planners never tore down Creighton Street or Preston or Hammonds Plains.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, it does.

Chinese-Canadians, Japanese-Canadians, Indo-Canadians, Afro-Canadians, etc. all got treated like crap because they were non-European.

For whatever reasons they reacted differently to that treatment and partly as a result, their respective situations are fairly different today.

That is precisely my point.

So... it's their own fault that they aren't better off? Please go on with this line of reasonsing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So... it's their own fault that they aren't better off? Please go on with this line of reasonsing.

I don't know for sure whose fault it is.

All I know is that there are very blatant discrepancies in community outcomes in spite of virtually identical starting points.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know for sure whose fault it is.

All I know is that there are very blatant discrepancies in community outcomes in spite of virtually identical starting points.

So, either they are less capable, or other forces are keeping them down. See any other options?

Look, I can't say because I'm a straight white male. I grew up poor and now I'm very well off. I know it's possible.

But speak to black people and ask them to describe their experiences growing up in Canada. There is blatant racism and prejudice out there. It doesn't mean every white person (or cop) is racist, but enough are. Even if it's mild, it all adds up.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know for sure whose fault it is.

All I know is that there are very blatant discrepancies in community outcomes in spite of virtually identical starting points.

It is very well known that mainstream/dominant groups look differently upon various minority groups. Italians, for one, were once disdained by many Anglo Americans as genetically predisposed towards crime, and were often denied opportunity on this ill-founded stereotype.

You yourself mentioned the sort of racism that your former (black) girlfriend had experienced. I don't think it is healthy to downplay or minimize the effect this can have on some people's psychology, especially when combined with the historical legacy of prejudice and its effects on the communities andf families of generations of African Americans.

Of course the AA experience is different than that faced by Blacks in Canada, which although far from ideal, is probably not nearly as bad or pervasive as faced by Blacks in say, Alabama.

However, anyone who thinks that Native people don't experience a huge amount of systemic prejudice needn't look further than numerous comments posted on SSP during the recent blockades.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So, either they are less capable, or other forces are keeping them down. See any other options?

Look, I can't say because I'm a straight white male. I grew up poor and now I'm very well off. I know it's possible.

But speak to black people and ask them to describe their experiences growing up in Canada. There is blatant racism and prejudice out there. It doesn't mean every white person (or cop) is racist, but enough are. Even if it's mild, it all adds up.

And East Asian and South Asian Canadians and some other communities will say the same as well.

Yet outcomes are highly variable across visible minority communities.

That's what I have been saying all along.

I don't know why. Are there forms of discrimination that Afro-Canadians were/are subjected to that other vis min groups were exempted from?

Also, Afro-Canadian outcomes seem to vary a bit according to region and metro area. So is there stuff going on with them in certain parts of the country but not in others?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

It is very well known that mainstream/dominant groups look differently upon various minority groups. Italians, for one, were once disdained by many Anglo Americans as genetically predisposed towards crime, and were often denied opportunity on this ill-founded stereotype.

You yourself mentioned the sort of racism that your former (black) girlfriend had experienced. I don't think it is healthy to downplay or minimize the effect this can have on some people's psychology, especially when combined with the historical legacy of prejudice and its effects on the communities andf families of generations of African Americans.

Of course the AA experience is different than that faced by Blacks in Canada, which although far from ideal, is probably not nearly as bad or pervasive as faced by Blacks in say, Alabama.

However, anyone who thinks that Native people don't experience a huge amount of systemic prejudice needn't look further than numerous comments posted on SSP during the recent blockades.

We are not really in disagreement. I am just a bit more blunt in my reflections.

(Warren, of course, is trying to put words in my mouth saying that I believe certain groups are "less capable".)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And East Asian and South Asian Canadians and some other communities will say the same as well.

Yet outcomes are highly variable across visible minority communities.

That's what I have been saying all along.

I don't know why. Are there forms of discrimination that Afro-Canadians were/are subjected to that other vis min groups were exempted from?

Also, Afro-Canadian outcomes seem to vary a bit according to region and metro area. So is there stuff going on with them in certain parts of the country but not in others?

Probably spillover from the US. Especially in the groups most likely to identify with the more racist segments of the US population.

Asian Canadians continue to experience a ton of racism as we've seen with COVID19. This exists here in Vancouver, where we have a huge asian population that's been here for generations. There should be generic "fear of outsiders", but the only difference is their ethnicity is obvious on sight.

Of course there will be regional differences...

[Electric Lady]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also believe that people of Jamaican origin might actually have better socio-economic outcomes in the U.S. than they do in Canada. That's even more of an apples-to-apples comparison.

In the U.S., people from the Afro-Caribbean in general are often considered (along with people like Nigerians) as "model minorities" within the black community and in wider society. That's not really the case in Canada, I'd argue. (Certainly not in the GTA.)

The fact that Caribbean immigrants in America do better than Caribbean immigrants in Canada says a lot about Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So... it's their own fault that they aren't better off? Please go on with this line of reasonsing.

That's just an observable cold hard fact, that no one can deny, even you. No need to push anyone to jump to a conclusion if there's not sufficient justification for it at this point.

Imagine the conversation ~100 years ago:

- "Huh, looks like sometimes electrons clearly behave as discrete particles, sometimes as waves. This is starting to be undeniable."
- "Please go on with this reasoning..."

One thing that I will say is that if a certain group commits ~3x more crimes, then it makes sense to observe that finite police resources turn out to be used on them more often than on other groups.

And I don't think you can call the COVID-related anti-Chinese reactions "racist". It's more general than that. The pandemic originated in China. In the early phases you were definitely more likely to be carrying it if you had a Chinese connection.

If there's a deadly pandemic originating in Scandinavia, expect more cases of locals in the French Riviera (where all of Europe shows up during summer, it seems) "being irrationally afraid" of blue-eyed blonds. But if the pandemic's hotspot is instead Maghreb, then it's people looking Algerian or Moroccan (also a common sight there) who'll be on the receiving end of this fear. You might as well try to scream for the wind to stop.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

And I don't think you can call the COVID-related anti-Chinese reactions "racist". It's more general than that. The pandemic originated in China. In the early phases you were definitely more likely to be carrying it if you had a Chinese connection.

I guess my main question is how we would quantify the amount of racism that Asians in Vancouver had to put up with because of covid. There were those videos, obviously awful, of people yelling at Asians and the story of the old woman who got pushed over. But this is a city with 2.5 million people or so (with some crazies who act completely randomly and annoy or harass anybody). You can't say much one way or the other about YouTube videos. Are those 1 in 10,000 events? 1 in 100, and there's an epidemic of old Asian ladies being pushed over?

It is no different from any other threat, risk, or problem that you'd want to quantify. Am I likely to die of getting shot? Hit by a lightning bolt? Hantivirus? What should I worry about? What should we worry about as a society? Do we just lurch from one panicked response to another based on what the most recent viral YouTube video was about?

If I had to place a bet I'd guess that Asians in Vancouver are on average more successful than whites (higher educational attainment, higher incomes).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

I guess my main question is how we would quantify the amount of racism that Asians in Vancouver had to put up with because of covid. There were those videos, obviously awful, of people yelling at Asians and the story of the old woman who got pushed over. But this is a city with 2.5 million people or so. You can't say much one way or the other about YouTube videos. Are those 1 in 10,000 events? 1 in 100, and there's an epidemic of old Asian ladies being pushed over?

Good thing we have stats for that:

https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-vancouver-police-provide-update-on-rise-in-hate-crimes

Asians came here with a ton of money in recent years, fleeing the Hong Kong turnover to China specifically and the CCP more generally.. Whether the ones who grew up here are better off than similar white people, who knows.