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  #1141  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 6:45 PM
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Applying characteristics of a group to an individual is stereotyping (or at the very least, an example of the ecological fallacy).
     
     
  #1142  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Applying characteristics of a group to an individual is stereotyping (or at the very least, an example of the ecological fallacy).
Sure, you can use statistics correctly or incorrectly. For example you might say that a specific white person must be racist because there's some difference in average outcomes between white and black people. Or say that a black person is likely to commit a crime because of higher crime rates committed by black people.

But then again that's not the same as evaluating a police department on the basis of statistics broken down by race, or putting police actions in context by looking at crimes committed by race (with the assumption that any police interaction has some chance of going sideways; ideally you don't want any "shots fired" calls).

Even if or when racism is a strong current or historical factor there's a big question of where to direct assistance in the "pipeline", i.e. do you reform police or do you tackle economic or social issues some other way? That's an active debate and there's no clear answer. Pointing out that racism exists and is bad (something most elementary schoolkids learn today in Canada) doesn't by itself do much.
     
     
  #1143  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 6:52 PM
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Crime statistics are not stereotyping. They represent objective fact to the extent that the data's complete and accurate. It's difficult to see how you can evaluate policing at all without them.
Chicken and egg.

If VPD are doing "stop and frisk" style searches more often against First Nations individuals (which they do), they will end up disproportionately charging more of them with crimes. Rinse and repeat.
     
     
  #1144  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 6:59 PM
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If VPD are doing "stop and frisk" style searches more often against First Nations individuals (which they do), they will end up disproportionately charging more of them with crimes. Rinse and repeat.
There is a problem with stop and frisk and I think it's unfair (and gets a lot worse when you compound that with bad drug laws and a dysfunctional legal system). However I don't think those are the cause of many police-involved deaths. And it is a bit tricky to prove that FNs are truly targeted by stop and frisk because you need to establish the context. What's the population makeup of the heavily-policed DTES, for example? I think we need a higher empirical bar than "police stop a lot of FNs ergo they are racist" (that doesn't mean they aren't racist, it's just a question of quality of evidence). This is important because a "fair" and functioning system may not end up with identical rates of arrest or police interaction across ethnic or racial lines (e.g. maybe whites will be arrested more than Asians; is that in and of itself proof of racism?).

The really dangerous situations resulting in a hugely disproportionate number of deaths at the hands of police are cases when a person is armed and threatening, whether it's a gun or a knife or a table leg. Usually the person has some kind of mental illness. A schizophrenic person waving a table leg around should not be shot and killed. Ideally such situations would be prevented or, if that's impossible, police would find a non-lethal way of defusing them. I think our biggest problems in that area have to do with the hangover from the war on drugs, mental health, and the courts and prison system.
     
     
  #1145  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 7:25 PM
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Chicken and egg.

If VPD are doing "stop and frisk" style searches more often against First Nations individuals (which they do), they will end up disproportionately charging more of them with crimes. Rinse and repeat.
Everything you have said here is no doubt true.

However, murders and other serious violent crimes are not subject to "discretionary" policing decisions.
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  #1146  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 7:29 PM
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Caller on Open Line beautifully explained systemic racism this week.

(For anyone new, talk radio in NL has 30% market share. It’s less than 5% everywhere else outside Quebec, and around 19% in Quebec. But here it’s pretty left-wing and gets everyone - from missus wondering why her welfare cheque is late to the Canadian Prime Minister. This show, Open Line, is the most popular).

Video Link
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  #1147  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 7:33 PM
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This man is a 4-star general. He's the new Chief of the US Air Force. His anecdotes were disturbing. You can't have a strong fighting force if any member of your team feels put up on like this.

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Gotta give Trump credit here for nominating the first African-American USAF Chief of Staff.
Everyone who comments in this thread should watch this.
     
     
  #1148  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 7:38 PM
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Everything you have said here is no doubt true.

However, murders and other serious violent crimes are not subject to "discretionary" policing decisions.
But, would you agree that poverty and institutionalized racism that keeps people in poverty, might lead to more violent crime among that community?
     
     
  #1149  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 7:58 PM
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Chicken and egg.

If VPD are doing "stop and frisk" style searches more often against First Nations individuals (which they do), they will end up disproportionately charging more of them with crimes. Rinse and repeat.
I don't think this is logically true. The cops could go up and down my street stopping people every day, for example, and they'd be hard-pressed to end up charging anyone with anything. Regardless of what people think about cops or the police system, they're not stupid, and it follows that they know better than anyone else where the crime is likely to be happening.

Which is not to suggest that all crimes are the same, of course. We should all be following the Portuguese model for decriminalizing drug addiction, for example.
     
     
  #1150  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:10 PM
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I don't think this is logically true. The cops could go up and down my street stopping people every day, for example, and they'd be hard-pressed to end up charging anyone with anything. Regardless of what people think about cops or the police system, they're not stupid, and it follows that they know better than anyone else where the crime is likely to be happening.
Just think of how many small town Southern Ontario grannies could be busted for heroin possession, just like in the DTES of Vancouver.

My neighbourhood is very diverse, probably minority white, and has a minimal police presence or crime problem. There is more going on than the police in Vancouver simply hating on and trying to bust non-white people.

In the DTES the social fabric is in such tatters with such deep problems that it's not clear there's anything police can do to really fix things. Even though stop and frisk isn't fair, I think drug policy reform is the elephant in the room for that area and really the root of problems. If you didn't have the drug and mental health problems the police wouldn't be needed much.
     
     
  #1151  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:10 PM
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But, would you agree that poverty and institutionalized racism that keeps people in poverty, might lead to more violent crime among that community?
Yes. To a point.

Every situation is unique but there are plenty of people in the world that have faced poverty and institutionalized racism that keeps people in poverty, and still don't react by killing others or each other in large numbers.

If we look at Canada, immigrant visible minority groups all started basically from the same place.

They all arrived to an essentially European-populated country with a relatively small indigenous population that was out of sight and out of mind.

They generally weren't rich and they faced prejudice and even mistreatment from the majority due to being so obviously different.

And yet today for whatever reason some of these groups, who all started out essentially from the same place, are way more impacted by violence (and criminal activity) than others.

I can't honestly say that I have an intelligent explanation as to why that is, but I'd be blind if I said there was absolutely no difference between them.
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  #1152  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I don't think this is logically true. The cops could go up and down my street stopping people every day, for example, and they'd be hard-pressed to end up charging anyone with anything. Regardless of what people think about cops or the police system, they're not stupid, and it follows that they know better than anyone else where the crime is likely to be happening.

Which is not to suggest that all crimes are the same, of course. We should all be following the Portuguese model for decriminalizing drug addiction, for example.
He has a bit of point, though.

If Acajack and Rousseau were walking through the DTES after having a few beers too many, having a good-natured argument about who between Fausto Coppi and Eddy Merckx was the greatest of all time, we'd still have an exponentially lesser chance of being bothered by the cops than two Indigenous-looking men doing the exact same thing.
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  #1153  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:19 PM
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I can't honestly say that I have an intelligent explanation as to why that is, but I'd be blind if I said there was absolutely no difference between them.
One of the big problems of the race-based argument is the variable outcomes of different minority groups. In the US in particular the differences in outcomes are stark.

For example in the income data I posted, Nigerian Americans out-earn the average American household a bit (~$60k vs ~$57k) while African Americans (not sure if they'd include Nigerians or not) are way below the average.

You can point out that there is a difference between Nigerians and the historical African American group, and I completely agree. However a lot of people argue that it's skin colour or appearance that are the big factor, and there are a bunch of racists out there in positions of authority who use those characteristics to keep people down (the black people don't get promoted, the police bust them all the time and they get unfair criminal convictions that derail their career, etc.). If that were the dominant dynamic you'd expect Nigerians to have outcomes that look like those of African Americans.
     
     
  #1154  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:20 PM
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He has a bit of point, though.

If Acajack and Rousseau were walking through the DTES after having a few beers too many, having a good-natured argument about who between Fausto Coppi and Eddy Merckx was the greatest of all time, we'd still have an exponentially lesser chance of being bothered by the cops than two Indigenous-looking men doing the exact same thing.
Eddy Merckx is the Wayne Gretzky of cycling. Plus "Merckx" is such a cool name. So, case closed.

True enough, the legacy of the DTES is such that the two indigenous guys would get hard looks from the cops, no doubt. That's unfortunate.
     
     
  #1155  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:24 PM
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One of the big problems of the race-based argument is the variable outcomes of different minority groups. In the US in particular the differences in outcomes are stark.

For example in the income data I posted, Nigerian Americans out-earn the average American household a bit (~$60k vs ~$57k) while African Americans (not sure if they'd include Nigerians or not) are way below the average.

You can point out that there is a difference between Nigerians and the historical African American group, and I completely agree. However a lot of people argue that it's skin colour or appearance that are the big factor, and there are a bunch of racists out there in positions of authority who use those characteristics to keep people down. If that were the dominant dynamic you'd expect Nigerians to have outcomes that look like those of African Americans.
I also believe that people of Jamaican origin might actually have better socio-economic outcomes in the U.S. than they do in Canada. That's even more of an apples-to-apples comparison.

In the U.S., people from the Afro-Caribbean in general are often considered (along with people like Nigerians) as "model minorities" within the black community and in wider society. That's not really the case in Canada, I'd argue. (Certainly not in the GTA.)
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  #1156  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:26 PM
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Yes. To a point.

Every situation is unique but there are plenty of people in the world that have faced poverty and institutionalized racism that keeps people in poverty, and still don't react by killing others or each other in large numbers.

If we look at Canada, immigrant visible minority groups all started basically from the same place.
Except first nations. And look at the state they are in.

I'd agree other immigrants started from similar places, but even here in Vancouver, with a very small black population, they were singled out. Their small area of town was wiped out by a freeway development.

We had Chinatown riots, anti-Japanese sentiment during WW2, and so on.
     
     
  #1157  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:29 PM
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I'd agree other immigrants started from similar places, but even here in Vancouver, with a very small black population, they were singled out. Their small area of town was wiped out by a freeway development.
Weird, Halifax destroyed their local black community, too. Must be a coincidence.
     
     
  #1158  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:29 PM
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Except first nations. And look at the state they are in.

.
That's why I said "immigrant visible minority groups".

Indigenous people are obviously not immigrants.
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  #1159  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:31 PM
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I'd agree other immigrants started from similar places, but even here in Vancouver, with a very small black population, they were singled out. Their small area of town was wiped out by a freeway development.

We had Chinatown riots, anti-Japanese sentiment during WW2, and so on.
This actually reinforces my point.

They all started out in this country getting treated crappy. And then went off into different directions.
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  #1160  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2020, 8:34 PM
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Hence the classic line which goes something like "even black police recruits become prejudiced against black youths after being on the force for a while".

It's never been clear to me whether that's an indictment of police culture or of the the character of (many) young African-American males. I guess it depends who is saying it.

If you look at the recent unrest, though, cities with high black representation on their police forces have been relatively quiet (Detroit, Atlanta, Baltimore, etc.) and these are also cities where African-Americans are a larger share of the population - of a majority or close to it.

But outside of the current crisis, a high African-American presence in the police generally has not led to lower violent crime rates. Most of these cities, even though blacks control and run the police force to a large degree, have sky-high murder rates.

And in terms of police brutality, there have been cases involving black officers for sure. The Freddie Gray death in Baltimore involved 3 or 4 black officers if I recall.
It's a complete pile of nonsense.

We got rid of religion, we have entire generations of people who only understand pleasure as the only good.


They see subordination of any kind as a form of pleasure denial. It is no surprise that men/fathers/conservatives/cops are viewed upon as evil because they deny pleasure. This becomes especially true when you have populations of people who's fathers have been parentally castrated, by divorce, matriarchy, going to prison, lazy fathers etc.




People who are advocating for pleasure are good people who are against it are bad.

This idea these people are bothered by unfairness is a complete crock of shit.


In real terms people aren't jealous of queens kings and royals their status detaches them from being part of a persons reality.

People are jealous of their peers. This is why the phrase "they don't care about poor people, they hate rich people" exits.

It only make sense that if you have black cops direct peers of the criminals that it will only increase the resentment not decrease it.

If a person isn't in your social hierarchy you really can't be bothered by their success. Which is why high school reunions make most people wanna puke. While in contrast going to a rock concert/hockey game with have the reverse affect. When you are exposed to someone who's above outside your hierarchy it bizarrely unifies you with the people in your own.

Instead of dealing with feelings of jealously in much the same way you might deal with feeingls of bigotry they double down.

The racism cause becomes the perfect agenda to moralize jealously.

Without jealously we would have more racism, therefore jealously is good.

It isn't any more complicated than that. The fact that you can so easily throw charges of racism at those who you are jealous of only adds to that fire.

It's a witch hunt and nothing sums it up more perfectly the phrase "systemic/institutional racism". As it is a term racism when there is absolutely zero evidence to show that it even exists. It's a word that sounds smart and it even makes sense unless you look at the data for Nigerians/AA, or Indo Canadians(poorest group in canada) versus Indo Americans(richest).

It's a moving of the goal posts used to justify hate based politics.

The obvious thing to mention is that it doesn't apply to all.

No more than most conservatives are all that racist.


However unlike the right the left has no mechanism to deal with these corrupters and are in fact taking the lead from these people.

Ironically I think it is a reason moral leftists are so paranoid of the right, they see what is happening in their community and assume that behind closed doors its happening on the right.

Last edited by LakeLocker; Jun 10, 2020 at 8:45 PM.
     
     
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