VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

So where is the money coming from to build 90 to 100 km of new track on a new right-of-way to link Saint John through Fredericton to McGivney?.... And what would be the cost of a new bridge over the Saint John River at Fredericton?

The same place the money for the HFR new tracks would come from. Think of it as the same idea; tracks to help an area with better rail service.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The same place the money for the HFR new tracks would come from. Think of it as the same idea; tracks to help an area with better rail service.

Comments like this make me wonder on which planet you are living, but just in case I just misunderstand you: are you really suggesting that private investors are going to rebuild 90-100 km, just so that you can run a daily train via Fredericton (i.e. this countries' 39th largest city with just over 100k people, thus the same population as minor Corridor nodes like Chatham, Sarnia or Drummondville)?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The same place the money for the HFR new tracks would come from. Think of it as the same idea; tracks to help an area with better rail service.

HFR will be funded by the new Canada Infrastructure Bank, who's mandate is to "invest, and seek to attract investment from private-sector investors and institutional investors, in revenue-generating infrastructure projects that are in the public interest." I don't think a new route to Fredericton would generate enough revenue to be attractive to private investors.

[roger1818]

I found an interesting video by Bloomberg that I thought worth sharing. It focuses on the USA, but is relevant to Canada as well.

Are Americans Ready to Love Trains Again?

(strange that [YOUTUBE] tags don't work properly anymore)

The quote that I found interesting is that trains have a sweet spot that is "too short to fly, to long to drive." Below 160 km (100 miles) a train can't compete with a car and above 1600 km (1000 miles) a plane will be much faster and cheaper. As a result trains are best at about 320 to 800 km (200 to 500 miles). Obviously you still need the population density to support it.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sure if QNS&L still runs mixed trains in Quebec and Labrador, but Keewatin Railway still operates a mixed train from The Pas to Pukatawagan in Northern Manitoba... it's the last VIA affiliated mixed train left.

Yup....the QNS&L passenger trains are now operated by Tshiuetin Rail between Sept Iles and Schefferville, Quebec

https://www.tshiuetin.net/an_informations.html

And here's the link for Keewatin Rail in Manitoba.....

http://www.krcrail.ca/train-schedules

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I found an interesting video by Bloomberg that I thought worth sharing. It focuses on the USA, but is relevant to Canada as well.

Are Americans Ready to Love Trains Again?

(strange that [YOUTUBE] tags don't work properly anymore)

The quote that I found interesting is that trains have a sweet spot that is "too short to fly, to long to drive." Below 160 km (100 miles) a train can't compete with a car and above 1600 km (1000 miles) a plane will be much faster and cheaper. As a result trains are best at about 320 to 800 km (200 to 500 miles). Obviously you still need the population density to support it.

I've seen the video before. I find 160km to also be competitive by rail. Depends on level of service and transit services at the destination.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I found an interesting video by Bloomberg that I thought worth sharing. It focuses on the USA, but is relevant to Canada as well.

I think it's very relevant. VIA carried 5 million passengers last year and with the new corridor trains coming...that number can only increase.

VIA is better utilized by Canadians than Amtrak is in the US.

Amtrak ridership 2019: 32.5 million passengers. US population: 329 million so about 10% of the population.

VIA ridership 2019: 5 million. Canada's Population: 37 million so about 13.5% and that is mostly in the corridor. Now if we only had a couple of other corridor type city pairs!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I've seen the video before. I find 160km to also be competitive by rail. Depends on level of service and transit services at the destination.

I think the point is with shorter distances, the train doesn't have enough time to benefit from higher speeds, so you need more frequent service to reduce the "inconvenience" of taking the train. The big exception is if the route is so popular that the level of congestion on the road is high, the train can allow you to avoid that congestion.

This also assumes that everyone owns a car. If we transition to a society where most people don't own a car, things change significantly.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

I think it's very relevant. VIA carried 5 million passengers last year and with the new corridor trains coming...that number can only increase.

VIA is better utilized by Canadians than Amtrak is in the US.

Amtrak ridership 2019: 32.5 million passengers. US population: 329 million so about 10% of the population.

VIA ridership 2019: 5 million. Canada's Population: 37 million so about 13.5% and that is mostly in the corridor. Now if we only had a couple of other corridor type city pairs!

That is true.

I can't remember where I heard it, and I am not sure it is true, but I thought I heard it said that the Windsor-Quebec City corridor is North America's third busiest rail corridor. If true, it is impressive, though it is probably more an indication of how bad things are in the US than how good things are here.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

At different points, we made connections in Moncton or Amherst. I believe earlier on it was Moncton, and it was really interesting arriving at the station at the same time as two other passenger trains so that connections could be made. It made the Moncton railway station seem really lively.

Some Moncton Connections Nostalgia from April 1986:

The westbound Atlantic from Halifax is on Track 2 for Saint John......then across Maine to Montreal.



The westbound Ocean to Montreal via Campbellton is on Track 1. Back in 1986 the Ocean only ran between Moncton and Montreal and passengers to and from Halifax took the Atlantic and changed to the Ocean in Moncton.



The Park Car on the Atlantic and the Ocean on the Right



The e/b RDC 'Railiner' from Saint John to Halifax.



VIA bus to Charlottetown



And to finish off.....the w/b 'Railiner' to Edmundston and behind it....some spare equipment.



>>>>>>

Certainly not as busy today......but the Ocean has arrived in Moncton last month and the bus to Charlottetown is waiting.

[MonctonRad]

Interesting article in the Moncton T&T today.

It sounds as if the VIA Ocean may be in peril.

It's a long storey, but the meat of the matter is that the European Renaissance cars used by VIA on the service are not bidirectional (capable of travel both forwards and backwards at speed), and the only way VIA can use these cars on the east coast is because of a rail loop on the Halterm container terminal property next to the downtown Halifax passenger train station. Halterm has apparently given VIA notice that they will no longer be able to use the loop as of November 1st. The only option VIA has is to back the train up to a "Y" shaped segment of track in Truro(!) to allow for decoupling and reversal. That would be 100 km of backtracking, which is obviously not practicable.

Apparently VIA is still looking seriously at a regional intercity service between Campbellton and Moncton, and Moncton and Halifax, which would be daily, and while originally being conceived as being supplemental to the Ocean, given the impending circumstances, this would become a replacement service for the Ocean.

If this transpires, the Maritimes would be cut off from the transcontinental passenger rail system, and to add insult to injury, the current luxurious service (dining car, sleepers, lounges) would be replaced with diesel pusher cars.

This sounds pretty outrageous to me!!!

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Interesting article in the Moncton T&T today.

It sounds as if the VIA Ocean may be in peril. ...…...

Yes......being discussed right now in several other forums I participate in and a good possibility come November you will no longer see the Ocean turning on the 'Loop Track' at the Halifax Container Terminal that it currently uses. But certainly not insurmountable as there are options!





There is a Wye at Truro where the train could be turned but it would have to run backwards for 65 miles either before completing the run to Halifax or after departure the next day. The locomotives could run-around and lead the train.....but the cars would be backwards for 65 miles including the 'Park Car' running directly behind the locomotives.

At one time.....the Ocean could be turned on the Wye at Windsor Junction (jct with the Dominion Atlantic Railway)...about 15 miles from Halifax but that connection has been removed.

Or the configuration of the consist could change depending on what cars are to be used. And it's only the Renaissance Coaches that face forward/one direction only. The Ren Sleepers, Diners and Service/Lounges are bi-directional with half the seats already fixed one-way or the other.

Seats in Budd Coaches can be rotated and I guess a Budd Diner could run backwards but you would have the 'Cabins for One' (old style Roomette) in the Budd Sleepers running backwards. There is a Turntable at CN's Fairview Engine Terminal where the Park Car could be turned but probably cost prohibitive to get one car out there and back to the VIA Station......and how receptive would CN be? Or just replace the Park with a Skyline Dome. When the Atlantic Limited ran across Maine (the CP version not VIA's) the Skyline had flip-over seats as the car was not turned in Saint John. The Skyline VIA uses now already has 4 seats facing backwards.

VIA could also just decide to terminate the Ocean in Moncton where a Wye is available.....and passengers take a connecting Intercity Train to or from Halifax. VIA has proposed starting an Intercity service in the Maritimes for several years now and it would run more frequent than the tri-weekly Ocean.

Perhaps this might be the best option. The Ocean is busiest west of Moncton especially in the sleepers....and this would give the coach passengers out of Halifax additional service.

I ride the Ocean often but don't see having to connect in Moncton to a sleeper a big issue and in fact I also ride coach occasionally to Amherst and Moncton.....and having additional frequencies is a plus.

Anyway....several options so could be interesting come November!

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Apparently VIA is still looking seriously at a regional intercity service between Campbellton and Moncton, and Moncton and Halifax, which would be daily, and while originally being conceived as being supplemental to the Ocean, given the impending circumstances, this would become a replacement service for the Ocean.

If this transpires, the Maritimes would be cut off from the transcontinental passenger rail system, and to add insult to injury, the current luxurious service (dining car, sleepers, lounges) would be replaced with diesel pusher cars.

This sounds pretty outrageous to me!!!

I guess there is a possibility the Ocean could be eliminated completely.....but I think you would also still have a daytime Intercity type service remaining between Montreal or Quebec City and Campbellton. (but an overnight stopover required if continuing onto Moncton and Halifax)

When VIA eliminated the Scotian which did a lot of the local stops....they replaced it with le Saint Laurent between Montreal and Mont-Joli…..and cities like Riviere-du-Loup and Rimouski now had daytime service instead of the wee hours of the morning. It even had a Skyline Dome for the scenery of the St. Lawrence Valley.

[Djeffery]

Roger1818 actually posted about the Ocean's potential demise a week ago on this thread, but it did get a little busy in between lol. Pretty wild when you first think about an important rail service being cancelled because you can't turn the train around. Is it actually practical to back the train 65 miles either into or out of Halifax? And I thought it's a pain in London when they have to backtrack 2 miles to the wye in the east end to turn that 2 car train at 3pm to go back to Toronto lol.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

I think it's very relevant. VIA carried 5 million passengers last year and with the new corridor trains coming...that number can only increase.

...

I thought the new trains would not add to capacity in the Corridor.

[milomilo]

Why can VIA not use the turnaround in the future?

Absurd state of affairs that VIA has to rely on the good will (lol) of companies. Further proof that rail, especially passenger rail, has to be owned by the government to function properly.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Is it actually practical to back the train 65 miles either into or out of Halifax?

Don't think it would actually have to be backing. The locomotives could run around to the opposite end and be leading. Only the cars would be running backwards for 65 miles.....and some of the seats are facing the opposite direction anyway.

Every time the w/b Ocean runs over to suburban Sainte-Foy to serve Quebec City......it actually has to back up for six km with the locomotives now at the rear and running in reverse to return to the CN mainline on the south shore......then passes through the Wye between Charny and Joffre Yard before continuing onto Montreal.

The eastbound Ocean does a similar backup.....but backs out to West Jct before continuing forward to Halifax.

Here's a crew member sitting at the rear of the Park Car for the back-up across the Quebec Bridge.....then backing through the east leg of the wye at Charny......

[Aylmer]

Isn't there a wye at Windsor junction by Sackville? It's still a long way, but not nearly as far as Truro.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Apparently VIA is still looking seriously at a regional intercity service between Campbellton and Moncton, and Moncton and Halifax, which would be daily, and while originally being conceived as being supplemental to the Ocean, given the impending circumstances, this would become a replacement service for the Ocean.

If this transpires, the Maritimes would be cut off from the transcontinental passenger rail system, and to add insult to injury, the current luxurious service (dining car, sleepers, lounges) would be replaced with diesel pusher cars.

This sounds pretty outrageous to me!!!

Why is it outrageous?

There are many flights a day that get you from Halifax to Montreal in less than 2 hours while the train takes something like 20 hours. And the train doesn't even run every day.

A train to Moncton running downtown to downtown every day would be vastly more useful. Eventually the train should go on to Saint John too. In the long run the Halifax-Moncton route should have trains running over 100 km/h and enough trains every day that people can do easy daytrips. In addition to the two cities at the endpoints, YHZ is along the route as are a bunch of small towns (Truro, Amherst, Sackville NB). There's a lot of latent demand for decent service along that route, but nobody takes the current train because it sucks.

According to Google Maps if you take the current Ocean train from Halifax to Moncton it takes just over 5 hours! Driving time is less than half that.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Isn't there a wye at Windsor junction by Sackville? It's still a long way, but not nearly as far as Truro.

There was.....see my post above:

"At one time.....the Ocean could be turned on the Wye at Windsor Junction (jct with the Dominion Atlantic Railway)...about 15 miles from Halifax but that connection has been removed"

And it was turned there.....here's a video from 2006:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys1xC7tsRZM&t=1407s