Vancouver Infill & Lowrise Updates Discussion

[Hmoob]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Plenty of businesses have paid some sort of tax on their inventory.

Any number of businesses incur holding costs on unsold inventory, but I can't think of anything comparable to the EHT in terms of punitive regulatory action to discourage possession of inventory. What businesses are you thinking of?

The EHT end goal was to enhance affordability. Forcing a developer to sell at the market price rather than hold the unit will do that.

Sure, it may do that once, but ultimately developers will learn how to avoid the penalty. They could delay requesting their occupancy permit for example. Or they could delay starting a project all together. In either case, no new housing is brought to the market at an affordable price. And creation of new housing is generally discouraged.

Similarly the city should scrap the ridiculous community garden tax dodge for developers. It just encourages land banking.

Totally agreed

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

Based on an outside prospective, it's very challenging to make the economics of MIRHPPs work. The recently approved trio certainly won't be making anyone rich, and there's more than a few projects that haven't work out.

Yup, wait till the local residents want it to be scaled back even more. Such projects will make paupers out of developers.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

For anybody out of the loop re: MIRHPP, there is a similar-sized building that was recently approved, 100% rental and 20% below-market on a $12 million property. Economics is definitely not the problem.

One approval doesn't mean much, plus there is no guarantee it'll be built. Drive around Vancouver and you see that it is relatively dead when it comes to developments, especially for the supposedly major economic centre of this region. Can't say the same for Surrey, Burnaby, Ricmond and Coquitlam though.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Posting a link as a rebuttal does not mean you are right.

Did you even read the article? Explain your point (so we can then have some fun and point out all your flawed thinking)

Originally Posted by Hmoob

You may be ok with developers getting hit with economic surprises, but that works against the interest of providing more housing.

A developer worried they may have to sell at reduced profit or a loss is less likely to start a project. It's not economical to build unless we're in a housing crisis. The EHT doesn't lift us out of our crisis, it ultimately constrains development and complicates the economics of developing new housing.

Squeezied, now this is some good logic you need to learn from.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yup, wait till the local residents want it to be scaled back even more. Such projects will make paupers out of developers.




One approval doesn't mean much, plus there is no guarantee it'll be built. Drive around Vancouver and you see that it is relatively dead when it comes to developments, especially for the supposedly major economic centre of this region. Can't say the same for Surrey, Burnaby, Ricmond and Coquitlam though.

I feel like a lot of rental developers gave it a shot and got burnt. You have the new rental rules locking rent to inflation, new eviction rules, massive increases in property taxes and services for the past 2 years, and even more taxes. You can only burn people so much before they decide you aren't to be trusted. The current rental developments may finish but I suspect Vancouver will find few willing to try new rental developments. Last I checked it looks like the BC speculation tax is no longer exempting developments?

Developers are businessmen and businessmen want a business plan that shows a clear profit. You can't have a reliable business plan when new rules finding ways to screw you more come out every year. Ontario honestly made a smart move when it provided rental developers with exemptions from rules. Would anyone here buy a rental unit here and expect to make a profit from the rent? Are stocks or rental units a better investment? Is it the market that makes rentals a bad investment.....or the government.

And btw I know whatnext keeps saying its a business like any other, it really isn't. It faces a lot more taxes and regulation than others. If housing was like computer sales than we wouldn't have price spikes longer than a few weeks when demand goes up because we'd just sell more computers. You can't accuse local Chinese of buying all the computers. There's enough computers that everyone could have 3 here and we'd be ok. Housing has not met demand and there is something wrong thats stopping it from doing so.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by misher

I feel like a lot of rental developers gave it a shot and got burnt. You have the new rental rules locking rent to inflation, new eviction rules, massive increases in property taxes and services for the past 2 years, and even more taxes. You can only burn people so much before they decide you aren't to be trusted. The current rental developments may finish but I suspect Vancouver will find few willing to try new rental developments. Last I checked it looks like the BC speculation tax is no longer exempting developments?

Developers are businessmen and businessmen want a business plan that shows a clear profit. You can't have a reliable business plan when new rules finding ways to screw you more come out every year. Ontario honestly made a smart move when it provided rental developers with exemptions from rules. Would anyone here buy a rental unit here and expect to make a profit from the rent? Are stocks or rental units a better investment? Is it the market that makes rentals a bad investment.....or the government.

And btw I know whatnext keeps saying its a business like any other, it really isn't. It faces a lot more taxes and regulation than others. If housing was like computer sales than we wouldn't have price spikes longer than a few weeks when demand goes up because we'd just sell more computers. You can't accuse local Chinese of buying all the computers. There's enough computers that everyone could have 3 here and we'd be ok. Housing has not met demand and there is something wrong thats stopping it from doing so.

Rental development is far from dead... stop reading made up headlines.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yup, wait till the local residents want it to be scaled back even more. Such projects will make paupers out of developers.

One approval doesn't mean much, plus there is no guarantee it'll be built. Drive around Vancouver and you see that it is relatively dead when it comes to developments, especially for the supposedly major economic centre of this region. Can't say the same for Surrey, Burnaby, Ricmond and Coquitlam though.

Yes. Architects and developers and engineers are going broke due to a lack of work...

[GenWhy?]

3 MIRHPP rezonings have been approved. More by end of Jan. And more in Spring proposed under new Rental Housing Incentive Policy.

Here's a map of how "slow" it's been:

https://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/index.htm

[misher]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Rental development is far from dead... stop reading made up headlines.

Not dead, but I suspect people will be a lot less optimistic about it. Your talking about a 25 year+ investment where the government is already putting in new rules to screw you and raising taxes far faster than you would have predicted in the first two years.

Notice how demand and prices for multi family rental have fallen in recent months. I suspect it will go lower.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by misher

Not dead, but I suspect people will be a lot less optimistic about it. Your talking about a 25 year+ investment where the government is already putting in new rules to screw you and raising taxes far faster than you would have predicted in the first two years.

Notice how demand and prices for multi family rental have fallen in recent months. I suspect it will go lower.

Agreed. Demand and prices for older non-redevelopable rental buildings to a certain degree are not the hottest item on the market. Especially when the current owners will sell because they don't or can't redevelop or rezone / navigate the City themselves.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

what is crazy, is a 7% tax increase but the max you can raise rent is ~2%. doesn't take long for the margin to disappear. and now with all this insurance cost going up? whats with that? one new building shot up over 700% in a year

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Yes. Architects and developers and engineers are going broke due to a lack of work...

Thank God for the burbs that provide plenty of opportunities!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

One approval doesn't mean much, plus there is no guarantee it'll be built. Drive around Vancouver and you see that it is relatively dead when it comes to developments, especially for the supposedly major economic centre of this region. Can't say the same for Surrey, Burnaby, Ricmond and Coquitlam though.

Approval and construction are one and the same in this city. And if it can be built in that corner, it can be built anywhere.

If you actually drove around Vancouver, you'd know you were flat-out wrong. There's construction sites for 4-10 floor projects all over the place, and the disruption to match. Even Dunbar and Kerrisdale are in on the action. Then again, you might just rationalize away anything under 40 floors for the umpteenth time.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yup, wait till the local residents want it to be scaled back even more. Such projects will make paupers out of developers.




One approval doesn't mean much, plus there is no guarantee it'll be built. Drive around Vancouver and you see that it is relatively dead when it comes to developments, especially for the supposedly major economic centre of this region. Can't say the same for Surrey, Burnaby, Ricmond and Coquitlam though.

LOL, maybe you should try driving down Cambie Street, or SE Marine and the River District.

[Marshal]

I understand Vin's rhetorical point (who couldn't after he has pursued it 5618 times like its the oxygen to his life . . . Vin, you're boring everybody. Find something new to think about.) Regardless, there is a lot of construction/growth in CoV. A lot. It is densifying all over the place in very interesting ways. There is plenty going up downtown and the next ring off of the peninsula, and along virtually all outlying (relative) corridors. It's childish to think Vancouver will not always be the centre of the Metro universe. Someday, even the desires (of all our inner childs) for taller towers, will be satisfied. Nothing remains forever, including Vancouver's restrictions and attitudes.

[misher]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

what is crazy, is a 7% tax increase but the max you can raise rent is ~2%. doesn't take long for the margin to disappear. and now with all this insurance cost going up? whats with that? one new building shot up over 700% in a year

Since they transferred 2% from businesses doesn’t that mean the increase is 11% on residential including rental owners?

[cyclinginvancouver]

2601 East Hastings Street

JTA Development Consultants has applied to the City of Vancouver for permission to develop this site with a new six-storey mixed use building consisting of:

five Retail ground floor units;
46 dwelling units under the Secured Market Rental 100 Policy;
two levels of underground parking having vehicular access from the lane;
proposed Floor Space Ratio (FSR): 3.8 FSR, approximately 45,050 sq. ft.; and
proposed height: 71.9 ft.
You may recall that City Council previously approved the rezoning of this site on November 5, 2019 In approving this rezoning, City Council approved the preliminary form of development generally as prepared by Studio One Architecture on behalf of JTA Development Consultants and presented at Public Hearing.

Among the conditions of Council’s approval of this rezoning is that the applicant obtain approval of a development permit. In making a decision on a development application, the Director of Planning shall have particular regard to the conditions outlined in the rezoning report, but may allow minor alterations to the form of development previously approved by Council.

Further information on this Council decision, including the Policy Report and related Appendices and minutes of the Council meeting, is available on the city’s website at the following links:

Policy Report: Policy Report dated September 17, 2019

Council Minutes: https://council.vancouver.ca/20191105/regu20191105ag.htm

Read the minutes

We welcome your written comments (letter or e-mail) on this development application. Comments should be received on, or before January 27, 2020 to be considered in the staff review. However, written comments will be considered up until the date of decision.

https://development.vancouver.ca/pc2601ehastings/index.htm

https://development.vancouver.ca/pc2601ehastings/documents/elevations.pdf

[GenWhy?]

Too bad the 14-storey next door didn't go ahead.

[GenWhy?]

Personal favorite lately because I still wish I had a project on this Street.

https://development.vancouver.ca/pc3495commercial/index.htm

Marianne and Harley are a power house. Check out and follow their "Hollywood Theatre" redevelopment.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Marshal

I understand Vin's rhetorical point (who couldn't after he has pursued it 5618 times like its the oxygen to his life . . . Vin, you're boring everybody. Find something new to think about.) Regardless, there is a lot of construction/growth in CoV. A lot. It is densifying all over the place in very interesting ways. There is plenty going up downtown and the next ring off of the peninsula, and along virtually all outlying (relative) corridors. It's childish to think Vancouver will not always be the centre of the Metro universe. Someday, even the desires (of all our inner childs) for taller towers, will be satisfied. Nothing remains forever, including Vancouver's restrictions and attitudes.

Obviously I'm not boring you if you are inspired to write the above novel. Don't get me wrong, I love downtown, although I hate how various policies restrict its development and potential. As for anywhere outside downtown: to each his own. You may find the various low-rise infill developments interesting, but to me they are just dead boring and uninspiring, with minimal densification that is far below what we need to house people, as well as the provision of amenities and facilities. To me we are simply creating the next generation of "Vancouver specials" all over this city's residential neighbourhoods.

Tell you what I find interesting: anywhere around the boundaries of CoV, Metrotown, Brentwood, City of North Van, New Westminster, Surrey Central, Coquitlam Central, UBC area and Richmond are getting way more interesting developments in those places. Within Vancouver, Marine Gateway is very nice, but our "think small" City policies are again restricting its potential for growth. The new proposal for Commercial/Broadway area is also quite inspiring, but I have a nagging feeling that it would be watered down due to local protests.

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by Vin

Obviously I'm not boring you if you are inspired to write the above novel. Don't get me wrong, I love downtown, although I hate how various policies restrict its development and potential. As for anywhere outside downtown: to each his own. You may find the various low-rise infill developments interesting, but to me they are just dead boring and uninspiring, with minimal densification that is far below what we need to house people, as well as the provision of amenities and facilities. To me we are simply creating the next generation of "Vancouver specials" all over this city's residential neighbourhoods.

Tell you what I find interesting: anywhere around the boundaries of CoV, Metrotown, Brentwood, City of North Van, New Westminster, Surrey Central, Coquitlam Central, UBC area and Richmond are getting way more interesting developments in those places. Within Vancouver, Marine Gateway is very nice, but our "think small" City policies are again restricting its potential for growth. The new proposal for Commercial/Broadway area is also quite inspiring, but I have a nagging feeling that it would be watered down due to local protests.

https://twitter.com/JenStDen/status/1215320039286460417?s=20

The numbers show Vancouver seems to be doing far more than the suburbs when it comes to densifying.