[Burnaby] Metropolis at Metrotown Redevelopment (Downtown Burnaby)

[owenhujb]

What do the "proposed gateways" mean?

[Waders]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

This.

2) Secondly, the south side of the mall.
They show the plans for a possible Event space on the location of where the current Bus Loop currently sits.
I thought we had already been through this.
They wanted to develop that lot already and place Metrotower IV or a residential highrise tower there and proposed relocating the bus loop to south of Beresford and both the city and Translink shot down that idea so fast, their heads are still spinning.
So how would they make the city and Translink come around to agreeing to relocate the Bus loop elsewhere in the area but not too far from the Skytrain station? (which is kind of the point for why it's located where it currently is)

Maybe they're proposing to eventually have some sort of combination Public events space and bus loop/transit hub-type deal? (the logistics of the program and functions of these two kinds of spaces operating in essentially the same area is a nightmare to even begin to contemplate.)

This is just an initial design concept. A lot can change in 50 years. This type of city center design might become obsolete in 2069.
The staff I talked to at the Info. session also mentioned all bus stops from the existing bus loop will be moved to south side of the skytrain station. I think the city is the only stakeholder against this. Anyway the move won't happen until phase 4 so it would be an issue for future generation.
I asked about the skytrain footbridge and it seems that is also a question mark. It can't connect to the 'retail core' which is a block away after phase 4 is completed. So the city might be able to save 20 millions if they decide to close off Central Blvd from car traffic.

[SpongeG]

We might have no retailers left in 50 years. I doubt Hudsons Bay will be around by then.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Right? If you're going to rebuild the mall anyway, why not add a couple of skyways? It's not like Metrotown doesn't have the room (*cough*Pacific*cough*)...

Originally Posted by Vin

I think that still can be done. Not shown on the plan, but hopefully they can be pressured to do that: something like the PATH of Toronto would be awesome, and both overhead and below ground, please!

I suspect skyways are more likely than an underground network due to money. Hell they used to have a basic skyway connecting the Eatons Centre and Metrotown Centre sections of the mall when they were separate - there was only an upstairs walkway between the two. Then when it became one mall they rebuilt it to have full store-lined hallways on both levels.

[SpongeG]

does anyone remember it before the skyway? you had to leave eaton centre and walk outside to metrotown centre and it was so small as the Bay extension hadn't been added yet.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

2) Secondly, the south side of the mall.
They show the plans for a possible Event space on the location of where the current Bus Loop currently sits.
I thought we had already been through this.
They wanted to develop that lot already and place Metrotower IV or a residential highrise tower there and proposed relocating the bus loop to south of Beresford and both the city and Translink shot down that idea so fast, their heads are still spinning.
So how would they make the city and Translink come around to agreeing to relocate the Bus loop elsewhere in the area but not too far from the Skytrain station? (which is kind of the point for why it's located where it currently is)

Maybe they're proposing to eventually have some sort of combination Public events space and bus loop/transit hub-type deal? (the logistics of the program and functions of these two kinds of spaces operating in essentially the same area is a nightmare to even begin to contemplate.)

Maybe they think something along the lines of Production Way Station would work with the bus loop below the building.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

does anyone remember it before the skyway? you had to leave eaton centre and walk outside to metrotown centre and it was so small as the Bay extension hadn't been added yet.

I don't remember that far back - that would have had to have been in the 80's. I can remember it from the early 90's.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

We might have no retailers left in 50 years. I doubt Hudsons Bay will be around by then.

If that happens, phase 4 schedule can be speed up. Hudson's Bay is located at phase 4 and its lease runs into the 2080s.

[officedweller]

Eaton Centre Metrotown opened a year or more after Metrotown Centre, didn't it?
I always recall there being a walkway between the two, but quite narrow - like a BC Ferry terminal corridor.

Originally Posted by owenhujb

What do the "proposed gateways" mean?

Probably some "welcoming" urban design element like a sculpture or something.

[cairnstone]

New westminister station, Lonsdale Quay, Production station all have covered bus loops. And it would be ideal to have the bus loop included with public space.

Looking at the plan the first podium has retail in it directly across from the station so I assume the design would have shops and lots of service based business and a path to the main mall identified as shopping area. This would be the high street.

I have seen other master planned communities change a fair amount from first phases to later so the best ROI is gained.

Depending on what is needed for parking it will have a big hole. As you are loosing 1 level of parking for truck and trade parking and travel and what not used for that most likely will be off site storage.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Waders

This is just an initial design concept. A lot can change in 50 years. This type of city center design might become obsolete in 2069.
The staff I talked to at the Info. session also mentioned all bus stops from the existing bus loop will be moved to south side of the skytrain station. I think the city is the only stakeholder against this. Anyway the move won't happen until phase 4 so it would be an issue for future generation.
I asked about the skytrain footbridge and it seems that is also a question mark. It can't connect to the 'retail core' which is a block away after phase 4 is completed. So the city might be able to save 20 millions if they decide to close off Central Blvd from car traffic.

Actually it was both the city and Translink who were both very strongly against the idea for a lot of practical and feasibility reasons.
Obviously the city's opinion is the one the primarily counts, but still.

The city was and is adamant that Beresford is going to be a pedestrian event walkway with little to no vehicular traffic on it, while Translink for its part felt (rightly so) that Beresford was too narrow to serve as a proper Bus Loop artery with no sufficient space for the necessary turning radii for buses or alcoves to temporarily park buses as they await their schedules not to mention waiting space for actual riders to queue up and wait.
And they were likewise against the idea of using the space directly beneath the Skytrain guideways.
Again with good and common sense reasoning.

There was just too much logistical issues to make the idea even remotely feasible that it was Dead on arrival before Ivanhoe Cambridge (who were the primary proponents for it) could even formally propose it.
Not much has changed since then to make it any more likely that this would be a reality.

I'm guessing that IC's new push will be to get some pressure on the city by getting some public support behind the idea of a public events space that would provide the impetus for them to take a second look at it again, but the problem for them is that that whole area is getting built up pretty fast at the moment and most of the available space to relocate it is either running out or getting converted into other more permanent uses.

Also, it's doubtful that they're ever going to close off Central Blvd. to car traffic.
Traffic in the wider area even on good days is bad enough that adding to the congestion by forcing cars into Kingsway or other adjacent parallel streets would be a non-starter for the city to even consider.
And again you would still have the problem of what to do with buses and a the bus loop which has to be within the vicinity of the Skytrain station in walkable distance.
It's the biggest transit exchange hub in all of Burnaby and the third largest in the GVA after Waterfront and Commercial-Broadway. And the buses are a large part of that.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I suspect skyways are more likely than an underground network due to money. Hell they used to have a basic skyway connecting the Eatons Centre and Metrotown Centre sections of the mall when they were separate - there was only an upstairs walkway between the two. Then when it became one mall they rebuilt it to have full store-lined hallways on both levels.

Those were planned and implemented back during the relatively more progressive days.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Maybe they think something along the lines of Production Way Station would work with the bus loop below the building.

While not technically fully underground (which has it's own set of issues and major problems), that's what I was imagining too, but those kinds of designs tend to be much better figured out ahead of any initial construction rather than as a conversion of a existing situation.
Which is probably how the Production Way loop was built.

Because remember that the Bus loop would likely have to remain operational and usable throughout any construction that would take place and building a building atop an open space on stilt-like structure like that is a considerably undertaking.

It's not impossible, but it would be a major headache that would cost someone a lot of money. (think: how they built the tower on top of the Main Street-Science World Skytrain station)

I wouldn't even be surprised if Ivanhoe Cambridge have already proposed or mooted the idea of a similar set-up for their Metrotower IV prior to suggesting moving the bus loop altogether when the city probably said no-can-do to temporarily shutting down the bus loop or building on top of a still functioning bus loop with the commuting public in the midst of a construction zone.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

We might have no retailers left in 50 years. I doubt Hudsons Bay will be around by then.

Hudson's Bay might not even be around in 5 years time.
And almost certainly in 10 years, unless they drastically change their business model (along the lines of how businesses like Chapters/Indigo changed to adapt to the digitization of reading and the proliferation of the internet and smartphones).

That Big box model of shopping is a dying breed and endangered species from the way people shop nowadays.
You can thank the Jeff Bezos' of the world and the like for that.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Eaton Centre Metrotown opened a year or more after Metrotown Centre, didn't it?
I always recall there being a walkway between the two, but quite narrow - like a BC Ferry terminal corridor.



Probably some "welcoming" urban design element like a sculpture or something.

they build the connector in 1989 and opened around 1989/90. Eaton Centre opened in earlier in 1989. I remember having to go outside to get to the other mall when visiting, the connector was under construction at that time. I worked in Metrotown in 1991-1992 and that was when The Bay opened in 1992. It was pretty dead so going to that mall really wasn't as good as Eaton Centre was.

[cairnstone]

There was also a sky deck to the west tying the theaters into the development as I recall.


I was assuming the Bus loop would be slightly below grade and the public space to sit on top.

Building above a bus loop is way easier than skytrain. Both have been done numerous times in the city.


A good portion of Cordova around the convention center was built with no impact to service

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

While not technically fully underground (which has it's own set of issues and major problems), that's what I was imagining too, but those kinds of designs tend to be much better figured out ahead of any initial construction rather than as a conversion of a existing situation.
Which is probably how the Production Way loop was built.

Because remember that the Bus loop would likely have to remain operational and usable throughout any construction that would take place and building a building atop an open space on stilt-like structure like that is a considerably undertaking.

I remember that Production Way's bus loop was temporarily moved during construction - but it's much quieter so nowhere near as much hassle as it would be to move Metrotown's bus loop.

[Sheba]

...and in news that will surprise no one here

Newly-released plans to redevelop Metrotown are getting rave reviews, but advocates for renters in the neighbourhood have concerns about what it will mean for those on lower incomes.

Plans from a developer to build 15,000 homes on the site of the Metrotown mall were made public on Monday.

Cecile Revaux with Stop Demovictions Burnaby is worried about what the development will mean for older buildings nearby and the people who live there.

“There is no way they can promise that everybody will be relocated in Metrotown,” she says.

Revaux adds even with a promise for the displaced residents to return to new buildings, that’s little help if they need to figure out somewhere else to live for the duration of construction, which could take years.

“I guess it makes me feel very angry, and I think for the people in the neighbourhood it’s very scary because it’s a giant redevelopment project happening right in front of their homes,” she says.

“Building more condos is not the solution. The city should really commit to building rentals that are affordable to the people. And 20 per cent below market housing is not affordable to the people.”

[officedweller]

Although not the best example aesthetically, the Lonsdale Quay bus loop is also under shelter.
Buses can move temporarily to on-street stops and then move back after construction.

[owenhujb]

Very crude model of Metrotown filled with towers (albeit with some mistakes), courtesy of Belford Properties

http://suntowersmetrotown.com/advantages/