Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by misher

You mean there copying Quebec?
I see the UCP as doing some smart moves. Desperately trying to keep companies from leaving by lowering taxes. Reducing pension payments made by Albertans. Definitely don’t agree with getting rid of the elections commissioner but we do have police to do that too so there is an overlap.

Lowering taxes is a smart move. Nothing has happened concerning pensions and they claim it will be put to a referendum along with other stuff. I'm 100% in favor of referendums. What a lot of people don't like is cutting investment in education, diversification, infrastructure, etc. and gambling so much on just one industry. Yes, the oil & gas industry is important but we shouldn't be putting all of our eggs in one basket. We've actually made good strides over the decades in diversifying our economy so why stop now?

Getting rid of the elections commissioner while a major investigation is going on just looks so sketchy. Really stupid move on the UCP's part even with the commissioner's sketchy past in this role.

Bringing up social issues such as abortion is the last thing the vast majority of UCP supporters wanted to see. Those issues have been settled so lets move on and deal with real problems such as the economy. Kenney's got a huge majority so there's no need for him to cater to a small faction of the party. By doing so it makes it appear that he agrees with them which is not good for him and it's definitely not good for the province's image.

[LilZebra]

When Ottawa gets over $2 B for the Confederation Line and Winnipeg only gets a half Billion for a stupid bus line, yeah, then I think there is some sort of "Western alienation" going on.


But its not just Alberta-centric.


Winnipeg $ for the stupid CMHR should have gone to a rail transit line, not a stupid BRT that set us back decades.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

When Ottawa gets over $2 B for the Confederation Line and Winnipeg only gets a half Billion for a stupid bus line, yeah, then I think there is some sort of "Western alienation" going on.


But its not just Alberta-centric.


Winnipeg $ for the stupid CMHR should have gone to a rail transit line, not a stupid BRT that set us back decades.

That isn't Western Alienation. That is just Ottawa not giving a shit about us. Full Stop. Calgary and Edmonton have received hundreds of millions, maybe even billions, of dollars of federal funding over the years for their LRT lines, while we were getting peanuts. Again, all those Albertans crying foul get no sympathy from Manitobans whatsoever.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Pinus

That isn't Western Alienation. That is just Ottawa not giving a shit about us. Full Stop. Calgary and Edmonton have received hundreds of millions, maybe even billions, of dollars of federal funding over the years for their LRT lines, while we were getting peanuts. Again, all those Albertans crying foul get no sympathy from Manitobans whatsoever.

You need to deal with your anger issues before you end up having a heart attack or a stroke.

Funding for these major projects is usually done on a cost sharing basis between the feds, province and city. Your provincial government and the city of Winnipeg are notorious for not wanting to invest in infrastructure. Do you want the feds to pay 100% of the cost of an LRT line? Do you guys even have plans to build a line that is ready to go? I think you'd be better off fixing the highway network around Winnipeg and I'd be more than fine with the feds helping you guys out.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

You need to deal with your anger issues before you end up having a heart attack or a stroke.

That is rich, and hypocritical, coming from you of all people.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Funding for these major projects is usually done on a cost sharing basis between the feds, province and city. Your provincial government and the city of Winnipeg are notorious for not wanting to invest in infrastructure. Do you want the feds to pay 100% of the cost of an LRT line? Do you guys even have plans to build a line that is ready to go? I think you'd be better off fixing the highway network around Winnipeg and I'd be more than fine with the feds helping you guys out.

You want to know why that is? Because we don't have an ocean of thick black liquid burried beneath our province to rely on as a majority of our GDP, and to hold as ransom over the entire country. Additionally, we have had inept leadership for over 30 years by both Tories and NDP, who have continued to destroy our economy and rendered us essentially broke. Add to this a federal government that couldn't care less if we existed or not, simply because we are not BC, Alberta, Ontario or Quebec; one of the "big four", the only provinces tje federal government truly care about. Put all of this together, and it places our province in a position where we are barely keeping the lights on at times, let alone being able to provide funding for essential infrastructure projects.

My point being that I have doubts the rest of the country, including Alberta, cares about Manitoba's struggles. So why should we care about your provincie's financial situation, especially when it really is still one of the best in the country?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

Winnipeg $ for the stupid CMHR should have gone to a rail transit line, not a stupid BRT that set us back decades.

If this is a criticism of the feds, it's important to note that the feds receive requests for funding transit projects from either municipalities or the provinces, or both, based on priorities and decisions made by those levels of government, not the feds.

The feds didn't say "Oh, Winnipeg, we think you need a BRT, so here's some money", against the wishes of Winnipeg/Manitoba.

The decision to go with BRT (and not rail) in Winnipeg was not made in Ottawa at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

When Ottawa gets over $2 B for the Confederation Line and Winnipeg only gets a half Billion for a stupid bus line, yeah, then I think there is some sort of "Western alienation" going on.


But its not just Alberta-centric.

.

The Confederation Line that just opened in Ottawa cost 2 billion dollars, of which 600 million came from the feds. (I admit to having no idea of the total cost of Winnipeg BRT, and what percentage of the cost came from the feds.)

The feds have also pledged to provide additional funding for under construction or planned extensions to Ottawa's LRT.

Keep in mind that Ottawa is quite a bit larger than Winnipeg, with about one third more people.

An important rule of thumb is the amount of money you get from the feds is typically based on your "ask" and how well it and the rationale for the project are presented.

[WarrenC12]

In BC our big transit funding has been approximately 40% province/40% feds/20% local transit authority.

The 20% is always the hardest portion. There's a long history there, but the Federal portion has always been available IIRC. I think the province even upped to 50% for the last project announcement.

To be fair, the local transit authority has traditionally been given a dog's breakfast of unpopular taxation options, so it's partially the province's fault.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In BC our big transit funding has been approximately 40% province/40% feds/20% local transit authority.

The 20% is always the hardest portion. There's a long history there, but the Federal portion has always been available IIRC. I think the province even upped to 50% for the last project announcement.

To be fair, the local transit authority has traditionally been given a dog's breakfast of unpopular taxation options, so it's partially the province's fault.

If that's the formula you guys are getting that's a lot better than the 1/3 each party has to come up with in AB lately. The local share is definitely the hardest to come up with and needs to be a lot lower.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Pinus

That is rich, and hypocritical, coming from you of all people.

Just giving you sound advice. It also doesn't help that you're lashing out at the wrong people. Albertans and others don't decide what projects you guys get or don't get.

You want to know why that is? Because we don't have an ocean of thick black liquid burried beneath our province to rely on as a majority of our GDP, and to hold as ransom over the entire country. Additionally, we have had inept leadership for over 30 years by both Tories and NDP, who have continued to destroy our economy and rendered us essentially broke. Add to this a federal government that couldn't care less if we existed or not, simply because we are not BC, Alberta, Ontario or Quebec; one of the "big four", the only provinces tje federal government truly care about. Put all of this together, and it places our province in a position where we are barely keeping the lights on at times, let alone being able to provide funding for essential infrastructure projects.

My point being that I have doubts the rest of the country, including Alberta, cares about Manitoba's struggles. So why should we care about your provincie's financial situation, especially when it really is still one of the best in the country?

Alberta has paid for a lot of major infrastructure projects either totally by itself or with minimal federal help. We're not getting any special treatment!

How is your inept governments the fault of the rest of the country? You guys keep electing them because it appears from the outside that a significant percentage of Manitobans don't want to pay for new and/or improved infrastructure.

I've advocated in the MB/SK forum that you guys push harder to get better highway infrastructure. Just the other day I was fully of support in connecting PQ and NL by a bridge. Albertans are probably the biggest supporters of vastly improving the Trans Canada Highway through B.C. We do care about the rest of nation. Just because we ask to be treated fairly and equally doesn't mean we're greedy. Stop being so defeatist and stop expecting the feds to do everything for you. Push your provincial government and the city of Winnipeg to stop being so afraid to do anything and get building. Make use of P3s and get something major done relatively quickly. After that the naysayers might STFU and start supporting more investment in infrastructure. If you don't change Regina and Saskatoon will both pass Winnipeg in terms of importance.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

If that's the formula you guys are getting that's a lot better than the 1/3 each party has to come up with in AB lately. The local share is definitely the hardest to come up with and needs to be a lot lower.

So practically, even municipal public transit should be mostly provincial responsibility?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Alberta has paid for a lot of major infrastructure projects either totally by itself or with minimal federal help. We're not getting any special treatment!

.

I don't think Alberta is getting special treatment but if indeed you are building major infrastructure projects (like rapid transit) with significantly less federal money than other places, you're probably leaving money on the table that would be available to you. (No idea if this is actually the case though.)

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

So practically, even municipal public transit should be mostly provincial responsibility?

Not necessarily for the design of it, but for funding. Even the provincial government is significantly less able to fund projects than the feds are. The federal government can borrow money with very little actual negative consequence (deficits are misunderstood by the population), where lower levels of government cannot. We shouldn't just throw around money with no due diligence, but borrowing money to build infrastructure is probably one of the easiest things we could do to boost the economy. Shame no government ever does it, including ones that say they will.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think Alberta is getting special treatment but if indeed you are building major infrastructure projects (like rapid transit) with significantly less federal money than other places, you're probably leaving money on the table that would be available to you. (No idea if this is actually the case though.)

Maybe there is method to the madness, but to the layman there appears to be little consistency to how the funding is split. Calgary is currently facing the potential abandonment of our next LRT (not helped by the provincial government cutting funding), it could be a godsend if the feds just bailed us out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Calgary is currently facing the potential abandonment of our next LRT (not helped by the provincial government cutting funding), it could be a godsend if the feds just bailed us out.

I don't think the feds would do that, though, i.e. jump in to cover both the (usual) provincial share plus the federal share. And generally the feds won't jump in until a project has secured provincial government support and funding. That's one of the main ways they determine if a project is worthwhile.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Maybe there is method to the madness, but to the layman there appears to be little consistency to how the funding is split. .

Maybe I am reading you wrong, if you're suggesting that the feds' contribution is somehow variable depending on where it's happening, that's almost never the case. It's almost always in the range of a third to 40% that the feds pony up.

A notable exception would be something like the Samuel-de Champlain Bridge, which the feds actually "own". It's not a Montreal- or Quebec-driven project. (Hence why it has bilingual highways signage on it! )

I suppose that roads through national parks are probably the same as well.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe I am reading you wrong, if you're suggesting that the feds' contribution is somehow variable depending on where it's happening, that's almost never the case. It's almost always in the range of a third to 40% that the feds pony up.

A notable exception would be something like the Samuel-de Champlain Bridge, which the feds actually "own". It's not a Montreal- or Quebec-driven project. (Hence why it has bilingual highways signage on it! )

I suppose that roads through national parks are probably the same as well.

Yes they are.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

So practically, even municipal public transit should be mostly provincial responsibility?

Yes. Municipalities simply don't have the taxation tools available for these large capital projects.

[misher]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes. Municipalities simply don't have the taxation tools available for these large capital projects.

Although a lot of municipalities have been taking things outside their sphere on, in the end municipalities in Canada are not provinces, their cities. Regional transportation infrastructure benefits more than one city and thus is provincial. Certain members of Vancouver’s city council have been doing their best to block infrastructure to no avail. It’s happening and Horgan has warned them that if they don’t plan it then he will.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe I am reading you wrong, if you're suggesting that the feds' contribution is somehow variable depending on where it's happening, that's almost never the case. It's almost always in the range of a third to 40% that the feds pony up.

A notable exception would be something like the Samuel-de Champlain Bridge, which the feds actually "own". It's not a Montreal- or Quebec-driven project. (Hence why it has bilingual highways signage on it! )

I suppose that roads through national parks are probably the same as well.

Yeah, I probably exaggerated the lack of consistency, but it does seem to vary to some degree from the oft quoted 33%. How they come up with the exact ratios is unknown to me.