Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, the practices of fracking is one method of getting oil out of the ground in the AB region. That produces NG, which is then processed for market.

I was not referring to the pump jacks that litter southern AB.

there's pumpjacks all over NEBC and rigs. I drive past a new pumpjack regularly that was just installed near Godwin and there was also a rig going up near that. There are lots of rigs and pumpjacks all around the Ft St John area.

[misher]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Higher marginal tax rates are usually a disincentive to earning higher salaries.

The lower salaries are probably made up for, to some extent, by better services (paid through higher taxes) and lower cost of living.

The flipside would be the US, which is a high salary, low tax (and low services) kind of place. There the worse public services are made up, to some extent, by the higher salaries.

Alberta is a high salary, low tax and high services place, but the high services are contingent on oil prices being high.

The west has higher taxes on investment than the East which stifles business (this was in 2017).

[Doug]

Originally Posted by begratto

Let me quote a tweet from Gerald Filion (a French-CBC journalist who specializes in economy and commerce) for a quick equalization-101 course:

Equalization is a federal program. Federal revenue is 332 billion: 138 billion from Ontario, 60 billion from Québec, 47 billion from Alberta. So, 47 billion of 332 billion is 14 %... and 14 % of 13 billion in equalization for Québec is 1,8 billion that would come from Alberta.

If that is actually true, good that the guy works for CBC as he would get fired for providing that type of analysis in the real world. By his methodology, AB taxpayers indirectly fund 14% of all federal spending. So the true value of transfers from AB to Quebec would be (sum of every federal line item in Quebec - $60B) X 14%.

[Mister F]

Some of these posts might be some sort of parody or completely genuine, I honestly can't tell. Do people actually believe that Quebec feeds at Alberta's trough? As if Quebecers are just sitting in the shade all day while Albertans are toiling in the mines? The reality is that Quebec is benefitting from the country's oil wealth just like Alberta and the rest of the provinces do. It's not like Albertans had the foresight to plant oil in the ground or something, it was just there. That doesn't mean that only one province gets to celebrate its sheer luck while everyone else misses out. Every province that's in the "have" category has lucked out by geography in some way, mine sure has. And we pool our resources with everyone else. That's how nations work.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know someone123 is not, but isn't wave64 an Ontario guy through and through?

Okay?

Originally Posted by someone123

I never said this.

Yes you did. "But Ontario has this mostly because it is a part of Canada." (untrue) "I am not sure why it would do a lot better than, say, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois" (aka extension of the rustbelt). But to be clear, I was responding to you and wave64 collectively. And he went on to say some truly fantasy land stuff.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Some of these posts might be some sort of parody or completely genuine, I honestly can't tell. Do people actually believe that Quebec feeds at Alberta's trough? As if Quebecers are just sitting in the shade all day while Albertans are toiling in the mines? The reality is that Quebec is benefitting from the country's oil wealth just like Alberta and the rest of the provinces do. It's not like Albertans had the foresight to plant oil in the ground or something, it was just there. That doesn't mean that only one province gets to celebrate its sheer luck while everyone else misses out. Every province that's in the "have" category has lucked out by geography in some way, mine sure has. And we pool our resources with everyone else. That's how nations work.

I'm not sure if you're just ignorant of how this country works or if you're trying to justify the raping of Alberta. Natural resources belong to the provinces. I don't see Quebec sharing it's resources with anyone but I see them stealing from other provinces every day. Quebec wants all of the benefits but none of the risks. Quebec is a cancer that needs to be cut out. Without Quebec Canada would be way better off. I say we give them their independence. I'm sure we can work out a repayment deal that won't be too onerous on them. We could even take some land in exchange for money.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Yes you did. "But Ontario has this mostly because it is a part of Canada." (untrue) "I am not sure why it would do a lot better than, say, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois" (aka extension of the rustbelt). But to be clear, I was responding to you and wave46 collectively. And he went on to say some truly fantasy land stuff.

Fantasyland? My take on Ontario sans Canada seems quite plausible IMO.

If you exclude Ottawa (about a million people there) - as there'd be no reason to have a national capital without a nation - I'd still argue that Ontario would still be a much smaller place.

Without the national railways (remember: the CPR was funded by land grants from the national government) a lot of the basis of Ontario industry never gets started. The few colonial railways would provide some work, but not on the same scale.

Looking at the skyscrapers that dominate the Toronto skyline, I see national banks and media companies - all protected by our banking and media ownership laws. If Ontario was an independent nation, it might have some local banks, but nothing of the same scale as our national ones. If it was part of the United States, what would have prevented TD Bank or CIBC from being gobbled up by Citibank or Wells Fargo in the decades past?

Finally, why would the auto industry expand to anything near its current size if not to gain access to the protected total Canadian market of the time? I doubt GM/Ford/Chrysler would build anything in the same scale if they only had the local Ontario market. They might do some assembly work (like foreign automakers used to do in New Zealand), but nothing to the scale they do today.

Why would you ship western grain via Thunder Bay if you could ship it via rail via the US? Or via Duluth? Why would you build a railway west across awful northern muskeg when you could build it across the fairly moderate graded midwest United States?

Would Ontario still be here? Yeah. Would it be a province of 14 million people as the economic centre of this area? Doubtful.

I'm not saying it to be insulting - I live in Ontario. But had the Charlottetown Conference failed and the colonies blundered along separately, I doubt it would be the place it is today. Such is the funny twists and turns of history and I'm quite glad the whole Confederation thing worked out.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

I never said this. We were talking about there being a drawback to Ontario leaving Canada. Admitting that there is a drawback isn't equivalent to claiming that Ontario is only successful because of the federal government. But I think it's pretty clearly more successful than it would have been as either just another US state or a strange semi-landlocked country next to a much larger neighbour. I don't think you'd have, say, the same proportion of North American air traffic connecting through Pearson if not for Canada, and I don't think that pattern would continue if Ontario left Canada.

I'm arguing from a historical perspective in a universe where Canada never comes to be in its current form.

Still, I struggle to see a situation where Ontario benefits from taking its ball and going home tomorrow. Why would you base your Canadian subsidiaries here if not to access to the whole of Canada?

It's not like Ontario has some magical characteristic about it that makes it an irresistible place to do business, like Singapore. Sure, we've got mining resources, farmland and stuff like that, but a lot of business in this province is simply due to the fact that setting up here gives you access to a market of 38 million people.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by Doug

If that is actually true, good that the guy works for CBC as he would get fired for providing that type of analysis in the real world. By his methodology, AB taxpayers indirectly fund 14% of all federal spending. So the true value of transfers from AB to Quebec would be (sum of every federal line item in Quebec - $60B) X 14%.

I think you need to read equalization-101 again (post 332). You’re getting this all wrong. And “the guy” is a respected journalist, specialized in economics, finance and commerce.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by begratto

I think you need to read equalization-101 again (post 332). You’re getting this all wrong. And “the guy” is a respected journalist, specialized in economics, finance and commerce.

Equalization is one of many programs that greatly benefits Quebec with money taken from Alberta taxpayers. It’s just the poster boy for inequitable distribution of tax revenue, look at all program spending and tax collection.

The nearly $240B Albertans have paid out as part of net federal fiscal transfers is more than one-and-a-half times as much as B.C. and Ontario combined

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/how...rta-picks-up-the-tab?video_autoplay=true

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by jawagord

Equalization is one of many programs that greatly benefits Quebec with money taken from Alberta taxpayers. It’s just the poster boy for inequitable distribution of tax revenue, look at all program spending and tax collection.

The nearly $240B Albertans have paid out as part of net federal fiscal transfers is more than one-and-a-half times as much as B.C. and Ontario combined

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/how...rta-picks-up-the-tab?video_autoplay=true

Unequal, not inequitable.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Doug

If that is actually true, good that the guy works for CBC as he would get fired for providing that type of analysis in the real world. By his methodology, AB taxpayers indirectly fund 14% of all federal spending. So the true value of transfers from AB to Quebec would be (sum of every federal line item in Quebec - $60B) X 14%.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/...kMembers%5B0%5D=1.6&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.

2018 data.

Total federal revenue: $332.546B

Federal revenue from Alberta: $46.728B (14.05% of total)
Federal revenue from Quebec: $60.101B (18.07% of total)

Federal spending in Quebec: $72.957B

(72.957B - 60.101B) X 14.05% = $1.806B.

A lot less than both Quebec's surplus and Alberta's deficit.

This narrative that Alberta is being sucked dry to pay for Quebec is completely untrue.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I'm not sure if you're just ignorant of how this country works or if you're trying to justify the raping of Alberta. Natural resources belong to the provinces. I don't see Quebec sharing it's resources with anyone but I see them stealing from other provinces every day. Quebec wants all of the benefits but none of the risks. Quebec is a cancer that needs to be cut out. Without Quebec Canada would be way better off. I say we give them their independence. I'm sure we can work out a repayment deal that won't be too onerous on them. We could even take some land in exchange for money.

I'm beginning to wonder if Corndogger isn't a Russian troll trying to incite discord and division. A forum like SSP would be fertile ground for a "fellow traveler".

Sowing division in the western world (BREXIT, Trump etc) is important work for both Russia and China. It will make their final triumph much easier to achieve.........

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm beginning to wonder if Corndogger isn't a Russian troll trying to incite discord and division. A forum like SSP would be fertile ground for a "fellow traveler".

Sowing division in the western world (BREXIT, Trump etc) is important work for both Russia and China. It will make their final triumph much easier to achieve.........

“Final triumph”

I’m not the only one that thinks this is a matter of when not if, eh?

[kwoldtimer]

Are there voices in Alberta making clear what they would want to happen to the federal revenue if equalization payments were stopped or reduced? Or is the expectation that Canada would just stop collecting the revenue?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm beginning to wonder if Corndogger isn't a Russian troll trying to incite discord and division. A forum like SSP would be fertile ground for a "fellow traveler".

Sowing division in the western world (BREXIT, Trump etc) is important work for both Russia and China. It will make their final triumph much easier to achieve.........

Throwing around words like "raping" and "cancer" seems more an invitation to hit "Ignore" than sewing division.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

“Final triumph”

I’m not the only one that thinks this is a matter of when not if, eh?

Let's just say that I am concerned..........

In unity there is strength. In disarray there lies only ultimate defeat.........

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Throwing around words like "raping" and "cancer" seems more an invitation to hit "Ignore" than sewing division.

Using words like that is needlessly provocative and is begging an inflammatory response that will only escalate. I think this is a ploy that a Russian troll would be trained to use.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Let's just say that I am concerned..........

In unity there is strength. In disarray there lies only ultimate defeat.........

Yep. United we stand, divided we fall. There’s no freaking way our adversaries (yes, they exist) aren’t paying attention to the division here in Canada. If not dealt with right, Canada’s game over in a few decades (if not sooner).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Quebec uses a lot less natural gas than the rest of us. They do pretty much all of their home heating with electricity there.

And wood stoves (going by the air quality warnings I've seen posted on the Environment Canada site during past winters)...

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by jawagord

Equalization is one of many programs that greatly benefits Quebec with money taken from Alberta taxpayers. It’s just the poster boy for inequitable distribution of tax revenue, look at all program spending and tax collection.

The nearly $240B Albertans have paid out as part of net federal fiscal transfers is more than one-and-a-half times as much as B.C. and Ontario combined

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/how...rta-picks-up-the-tab?video_autoplay=true

Don't display facts that would think QC'ers are living high on the hog off of my (AB) hard earned income? Blasphemy! They want to believe that they are fair earners and not soul sucking losers who keep taking and taking and then when the well dries up - "F*uck you pay me AB, this year's money bag better not be $0.01 less of the $13B or else we're sending in the HA's and other gangster's to start breaking knee caps."