VIA Rail network developments

[Gat-Train]

VIA could probably boost ridership if they offered train services late at night (say 8pm). That would allow a bit more flexibility for passengers. Heck, you could even take a day trip to Montreal if you took a 7am train there and caught the last one home at 8

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

VIA could probably boost ridership if they offered train services late at night (say 8pm). That would allow a bit more flexibility for passengers. Heck, you could even take a day trip to Montreal if you took a 7am train there and caught the last one home at 8

We've had this discussion already at length around Christmas:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A train departing from Toronto at 8 pm would arrive in Ottawa 12:00 to 12:30. A train departing Montreal at 10 pm would arrive in Ottawa around midnight.

Why does this not occur rather than an overnight sleeper train?

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

You seem to assume that there is ample of available capacity in the Corridor to add intercity trains as they are needed. However, if the limit of available slots is reached the question moves from "is there enough demand to justify this new train?" to "will this train generate enough demand to offset the demand I will loose by cancelling a different train on the same route?". You will inadvertently sort your anchor times (approximate departure time at a major node, such as the train's origin) by the largest revenue potential and start inserting them in that order, just like in the examples I provide for one, two, three, four, five or six frequencies:

• One frequency: Depart ~6am towards the more important terminus and return at ~6pm (example: Sarnia-Toronto).

• Two frequencies: Depart ~6am and ~6pm at either end (Sarnia-Toronto between January 1990 and April 1995).

• Three frequencies: Depart ~6am, ~noon and ~6pm at either end (Toronto-Ottawa between January 1990 and January 1992).

• Four frequencies: Depart ~6am, ~noon, ~3pm and ~6pm at either end (Montreal-Quebec between October 1992 and December 2012).

• Five frequencies: Depart ~6am, ~9am, ~noon, ~3pm and ~6pm at either end (Quebec-Montreal).

• Six frequencies: Depart ~6am, ~9am, ~noon, ~3pm, ~5pm and ~6pm at either end ( Toronto-Montreal).

• Seven frequencies: Depart ~6am, ~9am, ~noon, ~3pm, ~5pm, ~6pm and ~8pm at either end (Ottawa-Montreal between January 2012 and June 2015).

There are of course always deviations (e.g. Windsor=>Toronto with its 4 frequencies has an anchor time at 9am rather than at noon, whereas Toronto=>Windsor has one at 8pm instead of 3pm), but as a general guide, I would not expect a train later than 7.30pm as long as that seventh frequency is missing:

Source: VIA Rail timetables effective 1990-01-15, 1992-10-25, 2012-01-24 and 2018-11-18.

This suggests that if a seventh frequency was to be added between Montreal and Toronto, it would be at around 8pm. However, another problem is that day-time transit in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto ends soon after midnight, which makes any arrival time after midnight highly unattractive, especially given the likelihood of a delayed arrival. This is a big problem on a route taking approximately 5 hours today (e.g. Montreal-Toronto), while it would still allow an 8pm departure on routes which have a travel time of less than 4 hours (e.g. Quebec-Montreal, Montreal-Ottawa or with HFR also: Ottawa-Toronto)...

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

This suggests that if a seventh frequency was to be added between Montreal and Toronto, it would be at around 8pm. However, another problem is that day-time transit in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto ends soon after midnight, which makes any arrival time after midnight highly unattractive, especially given the likelihood of a delayed arrival. This is a big problem on a route taking approximately 5 hours today (e.g. Montreal-Toronto), while it would still allow an 8pm departure on routes which have a travel time of less than 4 hours (e.g. Quebec-Montreal, Montreal-Ottawa or with HFR also: Ottawa-Toronto)...

Of course both of these problems go away if VIA gets its own dedicated tracks (they can run trains whenever they want and aren't confined to the number of trains that CN will let them operate, and the likelihood of delays is greatly reduced). I know I am preaching to the choir though.

[lrt's friend]

You see, you are trying to make an entirely different point than I do: I'm arguing that the cuts in frequency on VIA's surviving Corridor routes have been almost reversed (or more than reversed, if we exclude Southwestern Ontario), whereas nobody denies that there were more intercity rail services offered throughout the 1980s over the railway network across the entire Corridor than there are today...

At one point recently, somebody posted schedules from around 1967, when Turbo service was preparing to launch (Turbo schedules where shown but were not yet in effect). At that time, only 3 trips per day traveled between Ottawa and Toronto, 2 via Brockville and one via Napanee. There may have been another trip via Peterborough. Nevertheless, with 10 round trips today, we already have a great improvement in service.

Given that there are flights between Ottawa and Toronto as late as 1 am (I have been on the last flight a couple of times), you would think that there would be demand for later evening trains. It certainly would facilitate day trips to Toronto and even more so, to Montreal. Mind you, VIA I am sure has a better feel on real demand. Late flights are a consequence of flight connections across the continent, which doesn't apply as much to rail at least in the short term. Assuming a broader rail network in the future, this may change.

[danishh]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

At one point recently, somebody posted schedules from around 1967, when Turbo service was preparing to launch (Turbo schedules where shown but were not yet in effect). At that time, only 3 trips per day traveled between Ottawa and Toronto, 2 via Brockville and one via Napanee. There may have been another trip via Peterborough. Nevertheless, with 10 round trips today, we already have a great improvement in service.

Given that there are flights between Ottawa and Toronto as late as 1 am (I have been on the last flight a couple of times), you would think that there would be demand for later evening trains. It certainly would facilitate day trips to Toronto and even more so, to Montreal. Mind you, VIA I am sure has a better feel on real demand. Late flights are a consequence of flight connections across the continent, which doesn't apply as much to rail at least in the short term. Assuming a broader rail network in the future, this may change.

yeah, i would guess that most of those late night toronto flights involve getting people back home to ottawa from connecting flights at pearson.

porter's schedule, a better gauge for toronto-ottawa demand, only has flights after 9pm on sunday nights (quiet hours at billy bishop start at 11pm).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

At one point recently, somebody posted schedules from around 1967, when Turbo service was preparing to launch (Turbo schedules where shown but were not yet in effect). At that time, only 3 trips per day traveled between Ottawa and Toronto, 2 via Brockville and one via Napanee. There may have been another trip via Peterborough. Nevertheless, with 10 round trips today, we already have a great improvement in service.

Very true. People look back to the glory days of rail travel and forget that in some cases the service wasn't as good as people remember it to be.

Given that there are flights between Ottawa and Toronto as late as 1 am (I have been on the last flight a couple of times), you would think that there would be demand for later evening trains. It certainly would facilitate day trips to Toronto and even more so, to Montreal. Mind you, VIA I am sure has a better feel on real demand. Late flights are a consequence of flight connections across the continent, which doesn't apply as much to rail at least in the short term. Assuming a broader rail network in the future, this may change.

There might be enough demand to support late evening service, but more demand than one of the existing trains they would have to cancel? I remember 5 years ago VIA had an evening train to Montreal from Ottawa that arrived around 10:30. I loved to take it when going to Montreal for work and took it several times, but it was always only about half full. Trains at other times are mostly full.

If VIA can get dedicated tracks and run as many trains as they want, there will most certainly be late evening trains that run well into the evening (a 7pm (ish) departure from Toronto via Ottawa would arrive in Montreal around 11:30 with HFR).

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

You need to add the trains operated by CP Rail to your graph, especially between Montreal - Quebec. Are the trains such as the Ocean and the St Laurent that stopped in Levis rather than Ste Foy or Quebec as being part of the Montreal - Quebec total? What about the pooled trains between Ottawa and Toronto running on CP trackage? Rather than list weekly mileages it would be more user friendly to graph the weekly train frequency on each route. This would increase the frequency in the 1960's and show the real impact of government cut backs over the years which to date have not been reversed.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

At one point recently, somebody posted schedules from around 1967, when Turbo service was preparing to launch (Turbo schedules where shown but were not yet in effect). At that time, only 3 trips per day traveled between Ottawa and Toronto, 2 via Brockville and one via Napanee. There may have been another trip via Peterborough. Nevertheless, with 10 round trips today, we already have a great improvement in service.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Very true. People look back to the glory days of rail travel and forget that in some cases the service wasn't as good as people remember it to be.

I didn't have the time to include QBEC-MTRL, but this is all scheduled service (in km, I boycott imperial measures as much as possible!) I could find on any route in the MTRL-OTTW-TRTO triangle, including service over the Smiths Falls-Napanee line ("OTTW-NAPN-TRTO"), Belleville Sub ("MTRL-BLVL-TRTO" and "OTTW-BLVL-TRTO") and the Havelock Sub:

Compiled from: official CN, CP and VIA timetables

Some mileage figures (per week):

• 2019/06/02: 119,219 km
• 1990/01/15: 64,876 km
• 1989/04/30: 88,340 km
• 1984/10/24: 105,275 km
• 1968/10/27: 108,421 km

[caveat.doctor]

Some renos underway in the lounge:

Old entrance, closed:



Temporary lounge, next to the Ministry of Coffee stand, where the Sul Posto used to be:



Seems a bit bigger actually than the old one because the ceiling is higher. Everything from the old one is there, including the coffee makers. Forgot to check if there was a washroom in there too though, not sure if there is one.

[Truenorth00]

They really do need to update the Ottawa lounge. Glad to see they are finally doing that.

[CityTech]

HFR was just brought up in the French debate and Scheer indicated his support.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by CityTech

HFR was just brought up in the French debate and Scheer indicated his support.

It's one thing to make an election promise, quite another to follow through.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

It's one thing to make an election promise, quite another to follow through.

That’s for every politician though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

HFR was just brought up in the French debate and Scheer indicated his support.

From the same party that wants to scrap the Canada Infrastructure Bank. Just saying....

[lrt's friend]

Much easier to cancel something than to actually build an expensive project. I would be concerned by the two statements to build HFR and scrap CIB. The easy one is the latter.

[MarkR]

CBC News · Posted: Oct 20, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 8 hours ago (Denis Babin/Radio-Canada)

Via Rail, Casselman in talks to expand commuter service to Ottawa

Casselman Mayor Daniel Lafleur is calling for a pilot project that would see more Via Rail trains stop in the eastern Ontario town during the morning and afternoon rush hour.

The village of Casselman, Ont., is in talks with Via Rail to expand train service between the eastern Ontario community and Ottawa during morning and evening rush hour.

Casselman Mayor Daniel Lafleur wants the Crown corporation to implement a pilot project as soon as possible to improve transit options for commuters.

"We discussed this with them [at city hall]," Lafleur said in a French interview with Radio-Canada. "This is an opportunity."

The additional rail service would complement the existing shuttle service offered by 417 Bus Line.

The mayor was careful to say talks with Via Rail weren't a reflection on the shuttle that's served Casselman for decades, calling it a "very good service."

More trains would be 'convenient'
In a news release, Via Rail said the proposal to increase the number of trains that serve Casselman will be discussed as part of ongoing plans to improve rail service in Ontario and Quebec.

This June, the federal government announced a $71-million investment in Via Rail to create faster, more frequent service.

Via gets $71M in federal money toward faster service in Ontario, Quebec
Danielle Chénier, a public servant who was waiting for a bus on Main Street in Casselman Thursday, said she's in favour of the idea.

"It would be convenient," said Chénier, who also likes the current shuttle service. "For a long time, I've thought Via Rail should stop [here] more often."

The municipality, which already has the support of Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson, is trying to rally other communities to join the call for more rail service.

For instance, nearby Alexandria, Ont., may also benefit from having more trains since they already pass through the town before stopping in Casselman and heading on to Ottawa, said Lafleur.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/via-rail-casselman-ottawa-commuter-service-1.5326455

[Gat-Train]

Commuter rail to Casselman and Alexandria would be cool. Should also use the POW bridge and Beachburg sub

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Commuter rail to Casselman and Alexandria would be cool. Should also use the POW bridge and Beachburg sub

I expect the proposal is to have existing VIA Rail trains during rush hour add stops at Casselman and Alexandria. Doing this would have minimal cost (though it would increase travel time for those travieling to/from Montreal). In fact, the morning trains to Ottawa (nos. 51&33) already stop in both towns. I suspect that the biggest issue is with train 28, though it seems a bit early for an evening commute (and the next one, which does stop in both towns, is a bit late), so a change in schedule would be needed.

Since VIA doesn’t run trains on the POW bridge and Beachburg sub, the cost would be significantly higher. That isn’t including all the track upgrades that would be necessary to get it approved for passenger use.

Smith’s Falls is a more likely option, but there is no existing train in the morning for commuters to use (the first train from the west doesn’t get in until 11:30 am.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I expect the proposal is to have existing VIA Rail trains during rush hour add stops at Casselman and Alexandria. Doing this would have minimal cost (though it would increase travel time for those travieling to/from Montreal). In fact, the morning trains to Ottawa (nos. 51&33) already stop in both towns. I suspect that the biggest issue is with train 28, though it seems a bit early for an evening commute (and the next one, which does stop in both towns, is a bit late), so a change in schedule would be needed.

Since VIA doesn’t run trains on the POW bridge and Beachburg sub, the cost would be significantly higher. That isn’t including all the track upgrades that would be necessary to get it approved for passenger use.

Smith’s Falls is a more likely option, but there is no existing train in the morning for commuters to use (the first train from the west doesn’t get in until 11:30 am.

Yes and the headline is misleading. Basically the Town's involvement is asking to please add more service.

Is anyone going to actually pay $50 a day to commute by via rail and then take the LRT? It is a nice option for someone who only needs to go to the office once a week but frankly slowing down the Montreal train by even 5 minutes adds up for many more people and every minute makes someone switch to bus or car.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I suspect that the biggest issue is with train 28, though it seems a bit early for an evening commute (and the next one, which does stop in both towns, is a bit late), so a change in schedule would be needed.
[...]
Smith’s Falls is a more likely option, but there is no existing train in the morning for commuters to use (the first train from the west doesn’t get in until 11:30 am.

The issue with train 28 is that it acts simultaneously as the afternoon commuter train and the evening last-train-of-the-day departure and as such a hybrid, it will always be too late for the commuter (who prefers 17:30, thus an hour earlier) and too early for the evening traveler (who prefers at least an hour later). This is unlikely to be fixable before we finally have HFR, just like the missing morning train stoping in Smiths Falls en-route for Ottawa...

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes and the headline is misleading. Basically the Town's involvement is asking to please add more service.

That’s also how I read the article.

Is anyone going to actually pay $50 a day to commute by via rail and then take the LRT?

A commuter pass is $319 with 20 credits for Ottawa-Alexandria, so more like $35 per work day for daily commuters.

It is a nice option for someone who only needs to go to the office once a week but frankly slowing down the Montreal train by even 5 minutes adds up for many more people and every minute makes someone switch to bus or car.

Except that this is not how people react in a market with multiple modes offered to a deterioration of their preferred mode’s offering: price-sensitive passengers switch to a lower-quality mode (e.g. car or bus) when the price goes up, whereas [/]time[/u]-sensitive passengers switch to a higher-quality mode (e.g. plane) if the travel time increases. In any case, this is less of an issue once we have HFR and there can be faster (and presumably more expensive) Express services and slower all-stop services, with both operating at reasonable frequencies...

[lrt's friend]

I think there is potential conflict between commuter service and Montreal intercity service. In order for commuter service to be cost and time efficient, there is a need for it to have dedicated trains for that purpose. In other words, a train dedicated to an Ottawa-Alexandria run, with additional stops that don't negatively impact Montreal service. The commuter train needs to be time optimized to maximize ridership and there will be the need to be a place to store a train (or two) overnight in Alexandria. If we add stations, say in Vars and Maxville and maybe even Carlsbad Springs, the speed of service will be enhanced if the line were to be electrified, a potential dream of HFR.