Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by logan5

I believe that there is a huge untapped market for people who would go from Nanaimo to Vancouver but it just isn't practical under current conditions, where you have to spend 6 hours travel time, and would realistically need to stay overnight, whereas a fast ferry service to downtown Vancouver makes it realistic to go for a day trip, much like you would see people coming in from Surrey and Langley. Being able to go and come back in one day will be huge draw for people.

https://www.mapleridgenews.com/news/west-coast-express-boardings-rise-10-per-cent-in-maple-ridge/

https://www.bcferries.com/files/AboutBCF/traffic_stats/September_2019_Traffic_Stats.pdf

A fast ferry from Vancouver to Nanaimo has been tried before by a variety of operators and has failed, multiple times.

The issue is that such a service has to compete with both BC Ferries on both cost, and with services such as Helijet and Harbour Air for speed, convenience, and schedule.

If you need to get to Nanaimo quickly and are willing to pay a bit of a premium, you can take either Helijet or Harbour Air and get there quick.

If you are cost conscious and don't care about getting there quickly, BC Ferries is the best option for you.

And considering the fare cost for a potential fast ferry operator to effectively break even on their investment and operating costs, they are not going to attract the cost conscious that will travel with BC Ferries, nor can they effectively compete with Helijet and Harbour Air on speed and schedule (nor can they effectively compete on price either).

The only way such a fast ferry service can effectively stay operational is if the government subsidizes the service, heavily. And you can bet there will be considerable lobbying from the existing operators against such a subsidy.

[Mac Write]

What HSB > Vancouver needs is a bus you board prior to docking (Translink bus) that is direct to downtown. That would cut the commute by 30 minutes alone. Same at Swarts Bay, Twassen, etc. and no not the coaches they have already which are expensive. just public transit. Maybe it could even use a Double Decker. As for the bus driver ideal would be he gets off the bus on ferry at terminal and then gets another bus, but this could be huge for foot passengers.

As for Bowen Island that would make a great pilot project using 40ft buses. and the Compass card can also pay your fare for Vancouver to HSB when the bus shows up 15 minutes before leaving and just drives right on.

The hike from Berths to bus is a long one.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

A fast ferry from Vancouver to Nanaimo has been tried before by a variety of operators and has failed, multiple times.

The issue is that such a service has to compete with both BC Ferries on both cost, and with services such as Helijet and Harbour Air for speed, convenience, and schedule.

Heck, even BC Ferries tried it, and failed pretty spectacularly. The expected travel times could never be achieved because the ferry couldn't run at full speed for much of the route without creating damaging wake.

[Migrant_Coconut]

So all in all, the only change with an Iona terminal would be the commute within Vancouver. Sounds like it'd mostly benefit tourists and the North Shore.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Heck, even BC Ferries tried it, and failed pretty spectacularly. The expected travel times could never be achieved because the ferry couldn't run at full speed for much of the route without creating damaging wake.

BC Ferries has never had a ferry service that went right into Vancouver harbour.

The new ferry service will have far smaller boats than those huge cats that were designed for carrying vehicles. Much smaller boat = much smaller wake. When Harbour Lynx was in operation,they ran the same route in 70 minutes.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logan5

The new ferry service will have far smaller boats than those huge cats that were designed for carrying vehicles. Much smaller boat = much smaller wake. When Harbour Lynx was in operation,they ran the same route in 70 minutes.

Well let's not forget that the Seabus was intended to make a crossing in 10 minutes but its wake at that speed was so damaging that they had to reduce to a 12-minute crossing, resulting in 15-minute intervals when you include boarding time. The point is that even for passenger vessels "high speed" operation does not apply to the entire route.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well let's not forget that the Seabus was intended to make a crossing in 10 minutes but its wake at that speed was so damaging that they had to reduce to a 12-minute crossing, resulting in 15-minute intervals when you include boarding time. The point is that even for passenger vessels "high speed" operation does not apply to the entire route.

I don't ever remember reading anything about 10 minute crossings.

The ferries were built with four Detroit Diesel 1271 engines, two located in each hull and driving fully rotating z-drives. About ten years ago these were replaced with Detroit Diesel 6V-92s. These have left the boats marginally underpowered but still capable of maintaining their schedule even with one of the engines down for service. While the boats have a design speed of 14 knots, their current operating speed of about 11.5 knots keeps the wake down while easily maintaining their 10- to 12-minute crossing times. “When we are making a landing,” explains Hughes, “we rotate the forward drives 180 degrees and this puts a real stress on the bottom end.”

https://web.archive.org/web/201012192058...er=4&id=6B57C5E45DC84D83AA39532114306859

In the Buzzer Blog

Interestingly enough, the SeaBuses take a diagonal route between the two terminals, to minimize the wake, the waves that they create behind them. The wake can have a rocking effect on nearby vessels, and so care is taken to keep the SeaBus’s wake low.

However, the Burrard Pacific Breeze was designed to minimize its wake, so it can sail at faster speeds without creating big waves! Look at the small trail left behind!

https://buzzer.translink.ca/2010/02/seabus-boosts-service-with-three-seabuses-for-the-games/

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by logan5

BC Ferries has never had a ferry service that went right into Vancouver harbour.

The new ferry service will have far smaller boats than those huge cats that were designed for carrying vehicles. Much smaller boat = much smaller wake. When Harbour Lynx was in operation,they ran the same route in 70 minutes.

And Harbour Lynx, may I remind you, was one of the many operators that have tried, and went bankrupt because they weren't breaking even, especially to cover incidental costs such as engine malfunctions.

Even the new proposal for a fast passenger ferry between Nanaimo and Vancouver Harbour is running into trouble; they are having a ton of problems securing financing, and I doubt they will meet their revised goal of starting service in 2020. They had a number of potential large investors walk away from them, so the chances of them getting started is also in doubt.

I will also note that the other player in the Vancouver to the Islands route, V2V, is also struggling as well; I've never seen them run with anything more than 1/3 full on each sailing even in peak season, and they are already in their 3rd season. And they are a much more experienced operator with deep pockets on a route that has a higher route potential.

[SpongeG]

• Video Link

[David]

Another possibility with a new ferry terminal on Iona Island is that it could take over the Nanaimo routes from both Horseshoe Bay and Tsawwassen. I believe that BC Ferries has often considered cancelling the Horseshoe Bay to Departure Bay route, since the terminal is already at capacity and has no room for expansion. Horseshoe Bay could continue to serve Bowen Island and the Sunshine Coast, and Tsawwassen would continue to serve Victoria and Gulf Islands, leaving Iona to service Departure Bay and Duke Point in Nanaimo.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by David

Another possibility with a new ferry terminal on Iona Island is that it could take over the Nanaimo routes from both Horseshoe Bay and Tsawwassen. I believe that BC Ferries has often considered cancelling the Horseshoe Bay to Departure Bay route, since the terminal is already at capacity and has no room for expansion. Horseshoe Bay could continue to serve Bowen Island and the Sunshine Coast, and Tsawwassen would continue to serve Victoria and Gulf Islands, leaving Iona to service Departure Bay and Duke Point in Nanaimo.

That being said, they could also probably cut back on 620.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I don't ever remember reading anything about 10 minute crossings.

I'm showing my age, but I remember that they were talking about 12-minute intervals when the system was first being built. But that got cut back when the vessels went into service.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

And Harbour Lynx, may I remind you, was one of the many operators that have tried, and went bankrupt because they weren't breaking even, especially to cover incidental costs such as engine malfunctions.

Even the new proposal for a fast passenger ferry between Nanaimo and Vancouver Harbour is running into trouble; they are having a ton of problems securing financing, and I doubt they will meet their revised goal of starting service in 2020. They had a number of potential large investors walk away from them, so the chances of them getting started is also in doubt.

I will also note that the other player in the Vancouver to the Islands route, V2V, is also struggling as well; I've never seen them run with anything more than 1/3 full on each sailing even in peak season, and they are already in their 3rd season. And they are a much more experienced operator with deep pockets on a route that has a higher route potential.

V2V is a very poor example of proof that a commuter ferry route between Vancouver and Nanaimo wouldn't work. V2V is purely a luxury cruise aimed squarely at the tourists travelling between Victoria and Vancouver.

Harbour Lynx was in business for 3 years, and finally had to shut it down in 2006. Since that time Nanaimo has grown and Vancouver has grown. What's especially important is that it is easier for somebody from Nanaimo to navigate around Vancouver without a car. Now that the Canada Line is in service, it would be far faster and far cheaper for someone from Nanaimo to get to YVR, and with the Broadway Line coming on line in 5 years, there will be many more destinations that would attract commuters. Emerging technologies will also have a huge affect on how people commute to and from Vancouver Island and the Mainland.

If Island Ferries doesn't end up offering a service into dt Vancouver, BC Ferries should, because it would most assuredly be a better business model than the current service. They could actually make a decent profit while giving people a much faster and likely cheaper option to get to dt Vancouver.

[Vin]

This just came out:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-bus-delays-road-traffic-congestion

80% of TransLink buses now travelling slower than 5 years ago: report
Kenneth Chan
|
Oct 21 2019, 1:54 pm

The vast majority of Metro Vancouver’s public transit buses are now travelling slower on the roads compared to five years ago, and it is largely out of TransLink’s control.

According to a new TransLink report that will be deliberated by the Mayors’ Council in a meeting this week, 80% of the region’s bus routes are experiencing greater delays due to a lack of bus priority measures and increased traffic congestion.

This has resulted in longer and less reliable travel times, as well as longer waits and increased overcrowding from bus bunching.

At the top of the list of the top 20 corridors for passenger delay is King George Boulevard and 104 Avenue in Surrey — served by the 96 B-Line — followed by Highway 99, West 41st Avenue in Vancouver, Broadway, and Hastings Street.

Municipalities are largely to blame

A lack of turning left turning lanes, cars that line a right lane ahead of a bus stop approach, curbside street parking, intersection design, and the number of traffic signals — especially signals that are not timed with lights, and are pedestrian controlled — are major impediments to bus service. Other hot spots include bridge approaches and the entrance to transit hubs.

Road design is under the direct jurisdiction of the region’s 21 municipal governments, and in some cases, depending on the road, the provincial government, such as Highway 99 and the Lions Gate Bridge.

TransLink says there are a wide range of proven bus priority strategies created by cities around the world that can fix the “inherently solvable” problems. This includes bus stop and curb management, bus stop placement, traffic regulations, movement restrictions, street design, bus stop infrastructure, turn pockets, queue jumpers, bus-only lanes, and various forms of traffic signal priority.

UBC Wesbrook Mall redesigned with bus priority measures. (UBC)

Some of these bus priority measures will be in place for four of the top 20 problematic corridors for the first five RapidBus routes slated to launch in early 2020, including on King George Boulevard and 104 Avenue, the Marine Drive corridor from Park Royal to Phibbs Exchange, 41st Avenue from UBC to Joyce-Collingwood Station in Vancouver, Lougheed Highway from Coquitlam Central Station to Maple Ridge, and Hastings Street from Burrard Station to SFU Burnaby.

Altogether, 30 km of new bus priority lanes are being implemented under this initial RapidBus program.

“We recognize that prioritizing transit — like any mode — requires examining trade-offs between users of the roadway,” reads the report, adding that public transit authority planners intend to assist municipalities in having those discussions and determining how best to reduce bus delay in the context of each community.

“TransLink is committed to assisting municipalities with that process. We developed tools that enable an evidence-based approach at a fine-grained level. This makes it possible to determine the respective benefits and costs of different allocations.”

TransLink is planning to address hot spot issues through a new Bus Speed and Reliability Infrastructure program that is jointly funded by the public transit authority and municipal governments.

Early this fall, TransLink and the City of Vancouver began a pilot project of painting curb lanes red at bus zones to remind drivers that they cannot stop in these areas.

$75 million in extra annual bus operating costs from delays
The public transit authority’s report paints a critical picture of the changes needed, as the delays are having a major financial impact on operating costs.

It is estimated slowing bus service has increased TransLink’s operating costs by $75 million per year — equivalent to about 700,000 annual bus service hours or 12% of the annual operating costs of the bus fleet.

“The slowing of bus service costs money and is a strategic risk to TransLink and Metro Vancouver transit service,” reads the report.

With deteriorating travel speeds and times, more buses and bus drivers are needed to keep buses on a scheduled frequency. For instance, a bus route that previously had a travel time of 50 minutes and a frequency of every 10 minutes required five buses, but with a longer travel time of 60 minutes on the same route, it would need six buses to maintain the frequency of every 10 minutes.

Additionally, the bus fleet operating costs increased by a further 16% from the added recovery time spent at termini. Recovery periods are necessary for the union-mandated breaks for bus drivers and to ensure on-time departures. However, when travel times become more unpredictable, recovery time needs to be increased.

TransLink’s bus schedules are adjusted every quarter to maintain on-time performance and provide drivers with breaks, but adding more bus trips and service hours adds between $2.5 million and $5 million in annual operating costs each year — equivalent to the cost of creating a new RapidBus line every one to two years.

“Bus delay due to congestion is a major problem for TransLink’s customers, budgets and our ability to expand. However, it is a problem for which many solutions exist, as has been demonstrated locally and globally,” the report continues.

“These solutions can deliver meaningful transit travel time and even capacity benefits relatively quickly and inexpensively, particularly when compared to larger transit infrastructure projects. Doing so saves money, enabling a greater share of future funding to go toward service expansion, rather than extra service to maintain schedules.”

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by logan5

V2V is a very poor example of proof that a commuter ferry route between Vancouver and Nanaimo wouldn't work. V2V is purely a luxury cruise aimed squarely at the tourists travelling between Victoria and Vancouver.

Harbour Lynx was in business for 3 years, and finally had to shut it down in 2006. Since that time Nanaimo has grown and Vancouver has grown. What's especially important is that it is easier for somebody from Nanaimo to navigate around Vancouver without a car. Now that the Canada Line is in service, it would be far faster and far cheaper for someone from Nanaimo to get to YVR, and with the Broadway Line coming on line in 5 years, there will be many more destinations that would attract commuters. Emerging technologies will also have a huge affect on how people commute to and from Vancouver Island and the Mainland.

If Island Ferries doesn't end up offering a service into dt Vancouver, BC Ferries should, because it would most assuredly be a better business model than the current service. They could actually make a decent profit while giving people a much faster and likely cheaper option to get to dt Vancouver.

V2V is a good example because it's being run by people with extensive knowledge in the passenger ferry industry (Australian-based Riverside Marine) and deep pockets. They are having a hard go at it right now; imagine a less well capitalized or knowledgeable company trying to do the same.

I will also mention that even Prince of Whales is even in the Vancouver to Victoria fray; they are running a hybrid service geared towards tourists where one can travel from Vancouver Harbour to Victoria Harbour and whale watch at the same time.

And Harbour Lynx shut down because their sole ship ran into engine problems, which sidelined their sole vessel, and since they didn't have enough money to fix the engines, they had to declare bankruptcy. Compare that to V2V, which also ran into engine problems in their first year of service, but they managed to stay afloat.

Another thing to note; there was also another company a few years ago that also wanted to make a go at the Vancouver to Victoria passenger ferry run; the people behind Clipper Vacations; a few years ago, they intended to run a Vancouver to Victoria ferry route on top of their existing service between Victoria and Seattle. They pulled out as well before even trying, citing difficulties in securing dock space in Vancouver at a reasonable price, and deploying the boat they bought for the route to enhance their Seattle run.

Again, as pointed out, for someone in downtown Vancouver, there are multiple options to get to the island, depending on how fast you need to get there, and how much you want to spend. Harbour Air and Helijet both operate flights to the Island direct from the Harbour at a price that's extremely competitive to any proposed fast ferry service from Downtown Vancouver, with shorter travel times to boot.

And even from YVR, both Helijet and Harbour Air operate from YVR's South Terminal; so why would someone getting off from a flight at YVR make their way to Downtown Vancouver to catch a fast ferry to Vancouver Island, when they can just take a shuttle from the main terminal to South Terminal and fly with Helijet or Harbour Air if they are in a hurry?

There's always been a lot of debate about whether the market is big enough to support an unsubsidized passenger ferry operation between Vancouver and Vancouver Island. Until now, no one's had the long term ability to properly test the waters, and so far, practically every entrant that has tried has either pulled out before even trying, or went bankrupt. The current existing operator is from all appearances, struggling to make it work, and they have every advantage from a working boat, dock spaces, deep pockets, and tons of experience.

So what makes people think that a private, unsubsidized passenger ferry service operating from Downtown Vancouver will work after so many attempts by various private operators?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Fast ferries aside, perhaps the Arbutus light rail having a hypothetical spur to the hypothetical Iona Terminal (and possibly Templeton Station) would catalyze its business case?

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Vin

This just came out:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-bus-delays-road-traffic-congestion

And yet our local politicians continue to try to convince us how car trips are on the decline based on the one-day personal travel diary data. Downtown maybe...But the rest of the region not so much...Just look at this article and the increase in the number of crossings on Port Mann bridge...

[Migrant_Coconut]

A lack of turning left turning lanes, cars that line a right lane ahead of a bus stop approach, curbside street parking, intersection design, and the number of traffic signals — especially signals that are not timed with lights, and are pedestrian controlled — are major impediments to bus service. Other hot spots include bridge approaches and the entrance to transit hubs...

... TransLink says there are a wide range of proven bus priority strategies created by cities around the world that can fix the “inherently solvable” problems. This includes bus stop and curb management, bus stop placement, traffic regulations, movement restrictions, street design, bus stop infrastructure, turn pockets, queue jumpers, bus-only lanes, and various forms of traffic signal priority.

Apparently, TransLink thinks we need to manage existing roadspace, not add more. I'd say the biggest problems are too many off-peak parking lanes, and population growth translating into increased foot traffic (hence the right turn lane backups).

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Fast ferries aside, perhaps the Arbutus light rail having a hypothetical spur to the hypothetical Iona Terminal (and possibly Templeton Station) would catalyze its business case?

I think Ultimately the "best" location to stick an additional ferry terminal would be at UBC once the Subway is built out there. But that would only really suffice for a passenger ferry terminal intended to connect with the Skytrain. Stick a car ferry terminal out there and it raise hackles from the NIMBY's for sure. A passenger ferry terminal could even work in reverse for UBC and have a ferry go between UBC and another place for UBC students/staff (Eg Gibsons or Seschelt), but this would primarily have to be a Nanaimo destination. Even to justify it would require faster ships that are actually designed to reduce wake.

Failing that, the next best location would be at YVR, but sending a ferry up the Fraser would be a serious mistake. YVR would only really make sense if there an equal terminal on Vancouver Island (eg West side of YYJ), but since there no rapid transit on Vancouver Island, it's a destination to nowhere. The Victoria ferry terminal is very cramped (almost as bad as Horseshoe Bay)

This raises an interesting option. If there was simply a way to avoid taking the Malahat, (eg re-use the entire rail line between Duncan and Vic West.) BC Ferries could then operate the other side of this link (there's an existing terminal at Crofton and would only need about a 3km length of rail built.)

But I digress, It's hard to get the politicians to think beyond their mandate.

[Express691]

https://www.translink.ca/Plans-and-Projects/RapidBus-Program/R1-King-George-Blvd.aspx 

The R1 RapidBus page has been edited to have service every 7.5 minutes during peak periods and weekends instead of every 9 minutes.