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  #12941  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:01 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
RE: Door Fault. Wonder if it's possible to manually shut the failed door with physical lock, isolate it(overriding any sensors if needed) and continue operating the train with passengers until it can get to the yard for service.
Ya gotta read Ken's twitter to get it:

https://twitter.com/drivesincircles/status/1182022438621724672
     
     
  #12942  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:14 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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I think this explains why other systems don't hit the same kinds of door issues. The plug type doors we have are way more susceptible to misalignment then the sliding doors on say a TTC subway car.
     
     
  #12943  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:27 PM
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Wow, it's almost like someone actually knows what is going on

I suspected that someone would have to do something really douchey for this to happen like reaming on a door that is trying to close and it seems I was right. The media and particularly the comments on news sites makes it seem like just a hand in the door could cause such a gong show....not the case. Looking forward to hearing about a flawless commute tomorrow.....and hoping we don't hear in the future about someone doing this just to be a dick and disrupt things.
     
     
  #12944  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:33 PM
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'Solve this damn (LRT) door issue,' angry Mayor Watson tells city management

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: October 9, 2019


Mayor Jim Watson said Wednesday that he has told city management to “solve this damn door issue once and for all” after another train door was jammed during a morning commute, leaving angry transit customers trudging to work rather than enjoying the smooth ride on their state-of-the-art $2.1-billion LRT system.

The transit failure on Tuesday made national news, became the butt of jokes and prompted the local distress centre to promote their services for passenger with mental health concerns.

“First and foremost, I apologize because this level of service is not acceptable,” Watson said after a city council meeting. “I’m frustrated. I was angry this morning.”

Watson said he met with transportation general manager John Manconi and city manager Steve Kanellakos about finding solutions to the door problems.

Manconi wasn’t at his seat during the council meeting, since he was dealing with the fallout from the morning LRT failure.

The door-jam on Wednesday morning happened at Lyon Station when someone tried to pry open a door to board a train around 8:15 a.m. On Tuesday morning, someone jammed a train door trying to force open the door to get out of a train at uOttawa Station at 8:05 a.m.

In both cases, the doors were in such a bad shape that the onboard technicians or the maintenance experts who responded to the trains couldn’t fix them on site. The trains were put out of service and OC Transpo had to route trains around the stopped train.

The problem on Wednesday morning — which happened not even 24 hours after Manconi asked passengers to avoid touching the doors — created such as bad ripple effect to the bus transfer terminus at Tunney’s Pasture that people left the station and started walking east toward downtown. The city launched a replacement bus service between Tunney’s Pasture and Rideau stations while the frequency of trains on the LRT line was increased to 15 minutes or more.

Watson said he had problem-free transit commutes in the mornings using LRT this week.

“I was feeling pretty good, and then I turned on my Twitter feed and, boy, I was not happy,” Watson said.

“We can’t have one door completely stalling the whole system for an hour at rush hour.”

Asked if the city accepted the 34 Alstom Citadis Spirit train cars too early when they might not have been ready for prime time, Watson said he didn’t think so, since the city received all the necessary safety signoffs to put the trains into revenue service.

The volume and behaviour of customers might have surprised the city, Watson said, adding that people are rushing for trains and holding the doors when it’s not necessary, since another train will arrive in under five minutes.

Watson said the city might have to consider implementing fines for people holding the train doors. He has also looked into releasing videos of the people holding doors to illustrate the problems, with people’s faces concealed to protect their privacy.

“I’m seeing the extreme growing pains of a system and the frustration on the part of a lot of people, myself included and the chair of OC Transpo, Allan Hubley, and that we have to do better and we have to come in with a plan that is going to deal with the door issue and the overcrowding issue,” Watson said.

As soon as Transpo removed the parallel bus service on Monday, there was a noticeably huge increase in the number of passengers looking to catch a train downtown in the morning. It’s busy in the afternoon commute, too, but the morning crush was intensified by the LRT delays on Tuesday and Wednesday.

Now, the city has all options on the table to reduce the strain on the LRT line, especially at the main transfer stations where people change between buses and trains. Even the possibility of bringing back crosstown buses is on the table, but bringing back buses will come with costs.

Watson said he still has confidence in the LRT system.

“We’re on Day 3,” he said. “The first day was fine, the last two days have not worked well at all, and we have to do better for the people of Ottawa.”

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https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...angry-mayor-watson-tells-city-management
     
     
  #12945  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:34 PM
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Door problems common in new trains — but shouldn't cause big trouble, expert says

Tom Spears, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: October 9, 2019


Door problems are common in a new LRT, says a professor who studies transit engineering — but they don’t usually stall the whole system in its tracks.

Doors “are historically the most problematic parts of the operation,” said Jeff Casello of the University of Waterloo. They are the only operating controls with which passengers interact.

And train builders must design doors to be “fail-safe. If there is an observation that there is something awry with the door, the doors will actually stop the operation of the train. That’s purposeful.”

But Casello said doors can usually be reset after a brief period. Sometimes this happens automatically: “You sit there for 20 seconds or 30 seconds and re-test” and continue if the doors are now closed properly. “Or it could require a manual override” by the train operator.

“When I heard the situation in Ottawa I was surprised to learn that there wasn’t the capacity for the operator to manually reset the doors, and that it actually brought the system to a halt.

“The normal system would be that in the case when the system itself didn’t reset, the operator would be able to override the door delay. I was surprised to learn that that wasn’t possible. I’m not being critical of Alstom (the manufacturer) or Ottawa’s transit operator but the norm would be that it would be able to be managed, and it wouldn’t bring the system to a halt.

“They have paused the system for an extended period of time and that would be inconsistent with my expectations,” he said.

“The sensitivity (of door sensors) probably isn’t the problem. It’s the ability to reset.”

But he said door problems are not a surprise in a new system, even after months of testing.

“This is very difficult to test, because we don’t often test with full-crush loads (of passengers.) And so the likelihood of someone bumping into the door or holding the door is much less until you really move into meaningful operation.”

There’s an unfortunate side-effect, he said. With a new transit system, “there is a very small window (of time) to make a positive impression or a not-so-positive impression.

“If your first experience is one where you get delayed for 45 minutes and the doors don’t open … that’s obviously not what the transit agency wants to happen.”

His message to Ottawa commuters: “Be patient. This is not an unusual situation and it shouldn’t be a substantive or long-term fix. It seems to me that this is the kind of thing that can be revisited and fixed pretty quickly.”

At the University of Ottawa, engineering professor Wail Gueaieb also suspects that testing failed to prepare for real-world conditions.

He used to work for a company that supplied parts to Ford, General Motors and Toyota, “and we used to run very, very rigorous tests in our systems” before delivering them. “An important part of this was repeating automated tests many thousands of times in all kinds of conditions,” he said.

“It can be tedious at times but it is very important.”

He believes the doors did not get enough testing, especially under real-life conditions where passengers push them open improperly.

“When I hear of these issues in the LRT, that is the first thing that comes to my mind — that the testing process hasn’t been done properly.” He said he has no direct knowledge of the testing, but said proper testing should ensure that a system is reliable when it enters service.

The problem could be hardware or software or a combination of both, both professors said.

Alstom SA, the French company that built the train, sent a brief email refusing to discuss the issue.

OC Transpo has a pinned tweet asking people not to hold the doors open. It was getting a lot of responses Wednesday from frustrated passengers including Allison Kerns: “I missed 4 separate trains this morning because the doors closed too quickly for everyone who wanted to get off. There was no time for people on the platform to get on. You need more trains, more buses, and for the doors to stay open longer.”

One passenger wrote: “This is most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. This is the first metro/subway/tram that ‘breaks’ when the doors are held open. These things don’t happen anywhere, just here. If there are dozens of people going on and off, the stop times must be increased! They are just too short.”

Another rider suggests: “Maybe we need the doors one would find on the TTC Subway. They take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’. A lesson to be learned here.” (The TTC is Toronto’s system.)

And several noted that passengers who do not have seats often cluster by the doors, reducing access to them, because they can’t reach the hand grips elsewhere in the car. They are too high.

A second emerging issue is the level of crowding. Transpo says the number of passengers taking buses downtown has ranged between a peak 10,000 per hour (in 2016) and 9,000 (in 2017.) LRT is designed to take a maximum of 10,700 per hour — 700 more than the recent peak in 2016. That puts LRT near capacity as it enters service.

[email protected]
twitter.com/TomSpears1

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...t-shouldnt-cause-big-trouble-expert-says
     
     
  #12946  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:39 PM
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The city released a memo from John Manconi regarding today's delays as well as steps moving forward to remedy the situation: You can consult it here:

https://www.otrainfans.ca/news/memo-o-train-line-1-update-october-9-2019
     
     
  #12947  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 9:40 PM
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OC Transpo recommends Ottawa commuters leave for work a week earlier

6 hours ago by Alex Huntley(@ajhuntley)
The Beaverton


OTTAWA – Ottawa’s public transit service is advising that area commuters should arrive at any bus or LRT stop a week in advance as a precaution to avoid being late for work.

“We are still making the transition to incorporate the LRT into the system so please leave your homes no later than 168 hours in advance,” said an OC Transpo official. “Thank you for your patience and understanding.”

An unexpected gentle breeze caused doors to malfunction, and contact with sunlight somehow caused OC Transpo officials to prematurely cancel bus routes leaving thousands of passengers stranded.

“We hope that during this chaos, two single people will have their meet cute moment and find true love,” added the official trying to look at the benefits of a frustrating situation.

In addition to departing a week early, transit officials say that passengers will be stacked on top of each other to avoid congestion on platforms to improve efficiency and safety.

When asked by a journalist about how the LRT will perform in snow, the spokesperson appeared to be horrified.

“Oh, no,” said the spokesperson widening his eyes while loosening his tie. “We’ve never thought that snow was a possibility in Ottawa, Canada’s capital.”

At press time, passengers were told to get out and push the 50 ton trains if they wanted to get anywhere.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/oc-...commuters-leave-for-work-a-week-earlier/
     
     
  #12948  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 10:02 PM
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It is time to start imposing fines on customers who jam, pry or otherwise willfully force doors open. This is self importance on the part of the rider doing this to the detriment of everyone else. Allowing more time for unloading/unloading will be helpful as long as the dwell times are matched with traffic loads at individual stations and on individual trains. The problem with longer dwell times is it creates longer travel times. Increasing frequencies at some point creates trains stoppages between stations because the spacing between trains is insufficient from a safety perspective. Increasing track speed between stations is not possible except since there have been some poor decisions made with track alignment between some stations such as Tremblay and Hurdman. You can only go as fast as the weakest link.
     
     
  #12949  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 10:22 PM
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just hire some of these guys


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  #12950  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 11:04 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by GoTrans View Post
It is time to start imposing fines on customers who jam, pry or otherwise willfully force doors open.
Once again, this is not entirely a wilful situation. If the doors close on you while you are exiting, what exactly are you going to do?
     
     
  #12951  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 11:28 PM
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Once again, this is not entirely a wilful situation. If the doors close on you while you are exiting, what exactly are you going to do?
Move faster?
     
     
  #12952  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Once again, this is not entirely a wilful situation. If the doors close on you while you are exiting, what exactly are you going to do?
I think it was quite clear that the doors closing on you or your appendage this would trigger the doors to open again. It is not until you forcefully pry them open that the shitshow occurs. I would suggest mob rules for anyone caught prying the doors open.
     
     
  #12953  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 12:00 AM
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just hire some of these guys
Just get rid of the doors

     
     
  #12954  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 12:02 AM
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Just get rid of the doors

Winter’s gonna be a gong show then.
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  #12955  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
I read this elsewhere and I agree it is very informative. Unfortunately, my impression is that our LRT doors are more vulnerable to misalignment than typical and more simple sliding subway doors.
     
     
  #12956  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 2:13 AM
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The decision to have a fully grade-separated transit system have a low floor was pure stupidity from the very outset.

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Seating configuration is limited with low floor vehicles. Even more so with low floor vehicles as long as ours. The max length of a San Diego Trolley is 27 meters, so they require 3 bogeys, while ours is 48 meters, so 6 bogeys. That's not proportional, we have more per 10 meters.

I'm not sure if we would be able to implement side seating over the bogeys where we currently have the 2+2 face-to-face seating as our bogeys might be wider than San Diegos. If we can make that change, we should for any Stage 2 trains that has not been started.
     
     
  #12957  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 3:04 AM
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The decision to have a fully grade-separated transit system have a low floor was pure stupidity from the very outset.
In order to have used longer cars we would have had to reduce the curvature of the line. This is another area where we were too cheap. So much for the Transitway being capable of being used for rail just by putting down track as described by the RMOC.
     
     
  #12958  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 3:06 AM
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
The rumours are true. This kind of change is monumentally stupid. What was a 10 minute bus ride to the Rideau Centre from Bronson and Carling has now become a 20-minute trip with a transfer. On the way there. Off-peak, who knows as it requires a train to an infrequent bus.

Obviously now I won't use what used to be a convenient bus to the Market. Nor will people working east of Bank. All for the sake of turning the bus 5 blocks early.

The degree of service cuts to people living within a 10-15 minute bus ride of downtown is appalling. Just watch the ridership fall.
And then watch them increase fares again saying, "If riders expect to receive the bus service they want, they have to pay more!" as Hubley claimed a few weeks back. The reason why they want to increase fares is because they don't want to raise taxes to help pay for transit, yet with a continually dropping ridership that pays for the service, they have a continually decreasing profit. Instead, they should address the actual concerns about reliability that is appalling and lower fares in order to entice people to actually use transit. If people think it's reliable, affordable, and will get them where they want to go on time, then ridership would increase.

I've said this to others, but I think John Manconi should resign (though he won't with his $280k salary) and they should select a councillor who actually cares about and understands transit issues, and that councillor and new General Manager should be required to ONLY take public transit to get around. That way, the Transportation Chair and GM will experience firsthand transit problems on a regular basis that they will be motivated to fix the problems and get things right from the start for new projects.
     
     
  #12959  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 3:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JM1 View Post
The decision to have a fully grade-separated transit system have a low floor was pure stupidity from the very outset.
Agreed, but to be fair when LRT was chosen over light metro in 2009, the plan was to have at-grade operation in the suburbs and potentially multiple lines using the tunnel.

I am assuming the Via Rail bus crash in 2013 created a lot more momentum to having grade-separation throughout all lines. The 2006 N-S LRT had 30-40 at-grade crossings, but the Stage 2 Trillium Line extension CTA report mentions that Transport Canada was requiring grade separation for the whole extension unless the City could demonstrate at-grade was just as safe. The Barrhaven LRT extension EA is also looking at grade separations as part of the City's response to TSB
     
     
  #12960  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2019, 3:38 AM
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Agreed, but to be fair when LRT was chosen over light metro in 2009, the plan was to have at-grade operation in the suburbs and potentially multiple lines using the tunnel.

I am assuming the Via Rail bus crash in 2013 created a lot more momentum to having grade-separation throughout all lines. The 2006 N-S LRT had 30-40 at-grade crossings, but the Stage 2 Trillium Line extension CTA report mentions that Transport Canada was requiring grade separation for the whole extension unless the City could demonstrate at-grade was just as safe. The Barrhaven LRT extension EA is also looking at grade separations as part of the City's response to TSB
A good review of history of the project. As you have said, a series of decisions over several years led to 100% grade separation. The original plan had the N-S route eventually interlined, which was originally not an entirely grade separated project.
     
     
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