Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Today's announcement:

Metro Vancouver mayors recommending eight lane tunnel to replace Massey Tunnel
https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/10/02/...ht-lane-tunnel-to-replace-massey-tunnel/

Interesting. How much say do they really have though?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Interesting. How much say do they really have though?

Remember two years ago when Surrey Council was still pushing for light rail? And the taxi-rideshare conflict? Horgan's idea of democracy appears to be a general "eh, whatever you guys want" policy.

[Metro-One]

Yep, the NDP literally stated that it was “up to the mayor’s council.”

Looks like they have decided.

You know what would have saved a lot of money, time, and now it seems ALR? To have simply reduced the plan already in action from a 10 lane bridge to an 8 lane bridge. Gee, that was my idea from the start!

The 8 lane tunnel isn’t a bad option, but tunnels (along with the several year delay, inflating costs) are generally far more expensive than bridges to construct. This could mean reduced scope / value engineering the rest of the project (including the transit component) to offset that cost...

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

i doubt this tunnel will get built.

it will cost so much money, require so much engineering to make it seismically safe in such bad soils, and take so much effort to get federal approval because of the sensitive ecological area. it will probably almost take a decade just to get all the approvals.

that is why why wanted to avoid tunneling and decided on a bridge originally.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yep, the NDP literally stated that it was “up to the mayor’s council.”

Looks like they have decided.

You know what would have saved a lot of money, time, and now it seems ALR? To have simply reduced the plan already in action from a 10 lane bridge to an 8 lane bridge. Gee, that was my idea from the start!

The 8 lane tunnel isn’t a bad option, but tunnels (along with the several year delay, inflating costs) are generally far more expensive than bridges to construct. This could mean reduced scope / value engineering the rest of the project (including the transit component) to offset that cost...

8 lane submersed tunnel costs the same as a bridge. Did you even read the article?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by libtard

8 lane submersed tunnel costs the same as a bridge. Did you even read the article?

The article is a 20 second read, read it 3 times, no where does it say that it will cost the same as an 8 lane bridge.

Basic engineering knowledge allows one to understand that a submerged tunnel in silty soils will cost more than an 8 lane bridge.

Have you ever wondered why Skytrain subways cost more per km than elevated guideways?

PS, what is your problem with me?

What do you want out of this project?

It’s fucking bizarre, I have been one of the biggest proponents for building this project right (complete modern rebuild of interchanges, compete replacement of the existing tunnel, median transit lanes, etc...) and you are a huge highway supporter who constantly complains about our highway system, yet you always seem to be on my case.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The article is a 20 second read, read it 3 times, no where does it say that it will cost the same as an 8 lane bridge.

Basic engineering knowledge allows one to understand that a submerged tunnel in silty soils will cost more than an 8 lane bridge.

Have you ever wondered why Skytrain subways cost more per km than elevated guideways?

PS, what is your problem with me?

What do you want out of this project?

It’s fucking bizarre, I have been one of the biggest proponents for building this project right (complete modern rebuild of interchanges, compete replacement of the existing tunnel, median transit lanes, etc...) and you are a huge highway supporter who constantly complains about our highway system, yet you always seem to be on my case.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-massey-immersed-tube-tunnel-mayors-recommendation

According to a regional district report ahead of the meeting, the cost of an immersed-tube tunnel is roughly the same as the bridge options, and about one-third of the cost of a deep-bored tunnel. No precise cost estimates have been provided at this early stage of planning.

[moosejaw]

I read three articles from the same publication. No where did it say that a tunnel is the sane as a bridge? Where did you get that info?

[officedweller]

An 8 lane tunnel will probably have similar capacity as a 10 lane bridge, because with the tunnel, the grades are shallower and you don't have trucks crawling up the approaches and don't need climbing lanes (which the bridge had).

[Metro-One]

Yeah, will hold my breath until I see some actual hard cost estimates and if they include a similar scope for the remainder of the highway (interchanges, transit lanes) or not.

For example, overall a submerged tunnel could be similar in cost... if everything else is value engineered for the rest of the project.

If in the end the two are similar in cost with similar full scopes of the entire project, I will be fine to eat humble pie on it. Still doesn’t excuse the extra costs in inflation due to the delay.

[WarrenC12]

Tunnels might be complex, but big bridges on that piece of land are complex too. The soil is the problem in both circumstances.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Tunnels might be complex, but big bridges on that piece of land are complex too. The soil is the problem in both circumstances.

True, it does require a lot of pile driving.

Not happy about the loss of ALR though, that was a big reason for my preference of a bridge over a tunnel. Also the experience of riding a bike over a bridge is far more enjoyable than a tunnel IMO.

That said, if this is indeed the full replacement tunnel (no retention of the old structure) I am satisfied. Just hope it includes a rapid bus system as solid as the bridge concept (median lanes, full bus stations, direct dedicated ramps to Bridgeport Station).

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

True, it does require a lot of pile driving.

Not happy about the loss of ALR though, that was a big reason for my preference of a bridge over a tunnel. Also the experience of riding a bike over a bridge is far more enjoyable than a tunnel IMO.

That said, if this is indeed the full replacement tunnel (no retention of the old structure) I am satisfied. Just hope it includes a rapid bus system as solid as the bridge concept (median lanes, full bus stations, direct dedicated ramps to Bridgeport Station).

In my opinion, the tunnel was the only option ever being considered. The Bridge was a nice idea, but the way the Liberals did capital projects was always a bloody disaster with edges cut resulting in surprises that keep on giving. Canada Line? Underbuilt. Port Mann? dangerous as hell in the Winter due to ice bombs. BC Place Stadium Roof? Drops goop on people. Vancouver Convention Center? Too small.

The NDP are no better though. The Fast Cats was a vanity project that sunk the NDP last time, so I'm sure the NDP this time are in no hurry to repeat that by having a vanity project this time around.

As for "the transit lane that must be possible to convert to light rail at a future date" ... Why not just build a standard gauge rail through the tunnel at construction and put two "LRT" style stops and a switch at each end that are the right width and gauge to run the Canada Line through it, if it ever gets there. Just leaving it as a bus-width lane only ensures that the lanes will have to be narrowed to add rail at a future date.

[Sheba]

Task force recommends new eight-lane tube to replace Massey Tunnel

Elected officials from communities on both sides of the George Massey Tunnel want the aging river crossing replaced with a new eight-lane tunnel.

The officials are members of a Metro Vancouver task force who chose from six crossing options proposed by the province. Their recommendation will be forwarded to a finance committee and then Metro’s board of directors for consideration, likely by the end of October or in November. A final Metro recommendation will be taken to public consultation by the province.

“I’m really pleased that the Metro Vancouver task force were able to come to agreement on the choice that they want to see for the crossing at the Massey Tunnel,” Transportation Minister Claire Trevena said.

...

The new tunnel would be an immersed tube, like the existing four-lane Massey Tunnel, which means it’s constructed in pieces that are sunk into a river bottom trench and joined together. It would have six lanes for regular traffic and two dedicated to transit, plus a multi-use path.

Critics warned that number of lanes means the tunnel would be a choke point for traffic from Day 1.

This option would require about a kilometre of tunnel, a large staging area, soil removal and ground compacting. It would have a significant environmental impact in and around the river during construction and require a complex environmental assessment, however it is considered to have little long-term impact.

It’s expected to take three years for an environmental assessment and five years for construction.

...

Deep-bored tunnels are considered high risk and would require one of the largest tunnel-boring machines in the world. There is a risk of multiple sinkholes during construction, interchanges would have to be reconfigured, ground densification would be needed on both sides of the river, and it would take the longest to build.

“It basically boils down to our unique soil and seismic conditions, combined with the significance of our river,” said Halwani.

...

New Westminster Mayor Jonathan Coté, who chairs TransLink’s Mayors’ Council, said there is a great need for permanent dedicated transit lanes throughout the corridor, to improve the speed, reliability and carrying capacity of rapid transit. The task force made that part of their recommendation.

Harvie said no tunnel replacement could relieve congestion without good transit.

“We can’t just build this in isolation, it has to have a robust rapid transit system,” he said.

Mayors also pointed out that the project should take into account improving the entire Highway 99 corridor, so the bottleneck is not just pushed toward Vancouver.

...

It’s expected the province will have a final business case complete by fall 2020.

...

[Metro-One]

Only concerning part there is citing the need to reconfigure interchanges as a reason to why the bored tunnel option wasn’t chosen...

Those interchanges are so outdated and flawed that a complete rebuild in needed no matter what option is chosen.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The Bridge was a nice idea, but the way the Liberals did capital projects was always a bloody disaster with edges cut resulting in surprises that keep on giving. Canada Line? Underbuilt. Port Mann? dangerous as hell in the Winter due to ice bombs. BC Place Stadium Roof? Drops goop on people. Vancouver Convention Center? Too small.

I mean...the Evergreen Line didn't turn out too bad, so I guess at least they are par for the course.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Only concerning part there is citing the need to reconfigure interchanges as a reason to why the bored tunnel option wasn’t chosen...

From the technical report... because a bored tunnel would have had approaches as long as the bridge (due to deeper depth) but the bored tunnel would have been 2 tubes each with 2 lanes stacked over 2 lanes - so they would need extra distance to "untangle" the lanes before the interchanges.

[misher]

The The Independent Contractors and Businesses Association is not happy with Horgan.

• Video Link

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by misher

The The Independent Contractors and Businesses Association is not happy with Horgan.

They were never happy with him, or the NDP. Elections BC records show ICBA donated over $350,000 to the BC Liberals in the 10 years to 2017, and its former chairman was linked to a shadowy group that ran $2 million in attack ads against Horgan in the run-up to the last provincial election.

They're basically an anti-union pressure group.

[cornholio]

Correct me if I am wrong but I understand they will spend more then the bridge and highway upgrades costs combined... to build only a tunnel with reduced capacity and leave the rest of the highway crumbling. This looks like a bad deal and wasting billions of tax payer dollars because of political squabbles and stubbornness at best, corruption at worst.