General Vancouver Updates

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I would very much like to know what kind of bakery or print shop would want/need an FSR of 6+ - it's almost always a two-storey warehouse on the ground floor and a few offices on top. A graphic design, film or recording studio would use even less space. Why zone for density that'll never be filled?

Not every tenant needs ground floor warehouse space. And there can be more than just a couple of tenants in a building. And the point being made is let the market decide what is viable. Not an artificial limit imposed by the city.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

The city needs to do the responsible thing and substantially increase the allowable densities to more appropriate levels for this area before its too late and they squander yet another opportunity for a better, more functional and interesting city. Four storeys in an old, underdeveloped light industrial district is absurd even for this crazy period in Vancouver's history.

It's about a very delicate balance between office space, which commands higher rents, and so pushes land values higher, and the rent for the ground floor industrial and service users. Allow more than 2 FSR of office and you risk higher land values, and so property taxes, that make all those vital services leave the city, which is not a good thing. This is one of the last places close to the high concentration of population where those services can find a home. Twenty years ago most of Downtown South was service or indutrial. So were some arterials like Kingsway. As they get residential developments with retail below, there are fewer places where refridgeration engineers or car repairers can locate. Those uses are still important, and they need to be able to afford to stay in Vancouver.

[truenorth44]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Those uses are still important, and they need to be able to afford to stay in Vancouver.

AMEN!!!! I hate to see that whole light-industrial area getting developed - it just means that any time you need those services, you're driving out to Langley. It reduces the livability of the city.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Not every tenant needs ground floor warehouse space. And there can be more than just a couple of tenants in a building.

Right, smaller creative businesses can share a building. 3.0 FSR is likely enough for that.

Originally Posted by osirisboy

And the point being made is let the market decide what is viable. Not an artificial limit imposed by the city.

"City-imposed artificial limit" is almost literally the definition of zoning, or at least the job description. City Hall plans, the market fills; letting the market do both is the backstory for every other Charles Dickens novel.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by truenorth44

AMEN!!!! I hate to see that whole light-industrial area getting developed - it just means that any time you need those services, you're driving out to Langley. It reduces the livability of the city.

Right. But if we artificially restrict density in an area could that not force that land to become more and more expensive because it becomes more and more scarce? I'm just guessing.

[misher]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Right. But if we artificially restrict density in an area could that not force that land to become more and more expensive because it becomes more and more scarce? I'm just guessing.

Basically what you saying is what happened in Vancouver.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Right. But if we artificially restrict density in an area could that not force that land to become more and more expensive because it becomes more and more scarce? I'm just guessing.

So the answer to rising land value that might push industries out into the suburbs... is zoning for Gastown-level redevelopment that will push industries out into the suburbs?

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So the answer to rising land value that might push industries out into the suburbs... is zoning for Gastown-level redevelopment that will push industries out into the suburbs?

No. I don't think you are following. I'm not talking about changing it from light industrial zoning

It reminded me of the west end and with not allowing increases in density would cause rents to increase long term. was one of the reasons for allowing higher densities in the community plan. But now I'm conflating rents with land values lol.

All of this aside. You said density doesn't need to be increased because there is no demand for it. If that's the case seems weird an increase in allowable density would increase land value

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by misher

Basically what you saying is what happened in Vancouver.

Yes. Seems like it. With limiting density has created more pressure on existing stock

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

No. I don't think you are following. I'm not talking about changing it from light industrial zoning

It reminded me of the west end and with not allowing increases in density would cause rents to increase long term. was one of the reasons for allowing higher densities in the community plan. But now I'm conflating rents with land values lol.

All of this aside. You said density doesn't need to be increased because there is no demand for it. If that's the case seems weird an increase in allowable density would increase land value

I got it just fine. What I'm talking about is that light industrial density mostly maxes out at around 3.0; unlike the West End, it's pretty hard to stack one warehouse on top of another. And anything denser (4.0, 5.0) incentivizes a form similar to an office building that works for developers and studios, but excludes furniture makers or printers.

That's the problem as I'm seeing it: industrial (especially near downtown) is an inefficient use of space. So zoning for industrial needs to be equally un-dense, equally inefficient, or else developers would rather have a rezone for denser, more efficient buildings that cut out industrial altogether.

[Hmoob]

Retaining the Mount Pleasant industrial area is an uphill battle; whatever zoning and development the city prescribes.

As modern cities grow, industrial uses migrate away from the city centre. There aren't a lot of car or refrigerator repair shops in downtown or midtown Manhattan. West London is sorely lacking for tool and die manufacturers. And don't get me started on how hard it is to find a good lumber mill near Shinjuku. Industrial land uses tend to generate low rents compared to other uses. In pricy cities, they get bumped.

Even as Vancouver goes to great lengths to preserve its industrial areas, They're changing in character. Instead of manufacturing facilities, they're changing to consumer sales of industrial goods with small repair/custom manufacture operations attached. Anything requiring major work increasingly needs to be sent out. At best, we'll see boutique artisanal wares manufactured with a “made in Vancouver” label and a factory tour included in your purchase price. We are seeing more high value research and development activities taking place. The False Creek lumber mills are history.

That's not even considering residential uses that inevitably find their way in, if sometimes illegitimately. Modern industry/manufacturing/warehousing doesn't make sense when it needs to compete for rents with such high value uses.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Hence "light" industrial like artisanal carpenters or food preppers; I know a printing company on Clark that's toyed with moving out to Coquitlam. I doubt anyone seriously thinks we can keep dozens of repair shops or factories close to downtown.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

what we need is an Industrial Land Reserve just like the Agricultural Land Reserve. that will help ensure industrial applications are kept closer than Langley.

[scryer]

Keep skimming through there, my fellow reader. It ain't over yet .

[cairnstone]

any changes to the area will increase the costs of rent and business to flee to south of the river. I used to own a Facility Service company and when I started if you needed parts all you needed to do was do a short drive and you had all kinds of suppliers. Well these suppliers are down sizes there wares not stocking as much or if at all do to the high costs of being in Vancouver. So if zoning changes the city will increase the tax rate causing more flight. Now if I need parts typically I have to head to Burnaby Still Creek area and soon this area will be gone as Burnaby is rezoning large tracks of light industry and driving suppliers out. My business was in Still Creek but ongoing increases in rent do to taxes forced me to seek other options for my business.

SO in another 10 years Maple Ridge, Port Kells,Campbell Valley is where you will need to got to get parts. And this is going to really effect the market.

Sure having 6 story buildings full of designers and programmers that all ride to bike to work and grow there lunch in the roof top greenhouse is a great Utopia idea but will not make Vancouver a functioning city. And will cause a decline I believe.

Cities need to have great balance. We have lost almost all of our industrial base in Vancouver. Now high paying Blue collar jobs are for development but all levels of government are wanting to create a recession so that home ownership becomes a thing again.

What needs done is leave investment properties alone and create a ratio of lower finish buildings with poor doors. This is what has always worked

[cov]

Originally Posted by cairnstone

any changes to the area will increase the costs of rent and business to flee to south of the river. I used to own a Facility Service company and when I started if you needed parts all you needed to do was do a short drive and you had all kinds of suppliers. Well these suppliers are down sizes there wares not stocking as much or if at all do to the high costs of being in Vancouver. So if zoning changes the city will increase the tax rate causing more flight. Now if I need parts typically I have to head to Burnaby Still Creek area and soon this area will be gone as Burnaby is rezoning large tracks of light industry and driving suppliers out. My business was in Still Creek but ongoing increases in rent do to taxes forced me to seek other options for my business.

SO in another 10 years Maple Ridge, Port Kells,Campbell Valley is where you will need to got to get parts. And this is going to really effect the market.

Sure having 6 story buildings full of designers and programmers that all ride to bike to work and grow there lunch in the roof top greenhouse is a great Utopia idea but will not make Vancouver a functioning city. And will cause a decline I believe.

Cities need to have great balance. We have lost almost all of our industrial base in Vancouver. Now high paying Blue collar jobs are for development but all levels of government are wanting to create a recession so that home ownership becomes a thing again.

What needs done is leave investment properties alone and create a ratio of lower finish buildings with poor doors. This is what has always worked

I don't see autoshops in manhattan, downtown paris, or downtown London, or any of the thriving cities around the world. Numerous European cities have banned personal vehicles from cities centers and have reported an overall improvement to overall livability. This is the current reality, not a utopian hypothesis.

Mt pleasant Industrial zoning is about anti-change conservative politics in a city that wants to maintain a progressive image. The nimby block uphill wants to keep their views. It's probably the only reason why a block about to be surrounded by 5 skytrain stations is limited to 3 fsr.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Yo, there's industrial in the area that isn't car repair shops. A quick Google Maps check will show bakeries, coffee roasters, juicemakers, lighting, furniture, sportswear, party rentals, electrical suppliers, photography labs, and one appliance showroom.

None of the above would benefit from the area becoming <75% office complexes (the likely path for high-density zoning).

[GenWhy?]

The issue is not simply having industrial or not... it's how do you maintain the uses that and quasi industrial, office or service and what zoning that falls under and what is and what is not permitted and maintain business, services, without having Vancouver business move to Langely (breweries, food distributors) and having to ship into Van. As well as having local "industry" not simply be replaced by office, while we maintain restrcitive zoning in residential areas that don't allow commerial or "industrial", office areas that don't allow creative service or industrial uses and rents are too high...

It's a balance just as you would with rental residential areas. You can tip the scales with good intent but reap unfortunate rewards (displacement). Some displacement is good (heavy manufacturing and auto-based services that might be technologically outdated or need more space, naturally) and some is bad.

The biggest issue and items being tackled is the allowed uses under the various zoning by-laws and expanding mixing of uses as "production" changes, as well as expanding commercial uses, service uses to residential areas on the main floor. Property tax rates and land costs drive out existing business and also prevent new ones from moving into new buildings in the area. Upzoning is not always good (except for Westbanks and Hootsuites and Amazons).

[cov]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yo, there's industrial in the area that isn't car repair shops. A quick Google Maps check will show bakeries, coffee roasters, juicemakers, lighting, furniture, sportswear, party rentals, electrical suppliers, photography labs, and one appliance showroom.

None of the above would benefit from the area becoming <75% office complexes (the likely path for high-density zoning).

Today I learned Paris, Frankfurt, Barcelona, Utrecht, none of these fantastic cities have coffee roasters and bakeries since their cities don't have quasi-industrial land that's 3 fsr in the downtown core.

Oh wait, all these cities maintain higher density throughout their city, and have far better coffee roasters and bakeries. These claims can be rejected with the simplest of observations. I maintain that mount pleasant industrial zoning is primarily about anti-change conservative politics than real concern for the art and food scene. The number 1 use for the area is storage, followed by auto service, followed by office. Bakeries and coffee shops will adapt just fine

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cov

Today I learned Paris, Frankfurt, Barcelona, Utrecht, none of these fantastic cities have coffee roasters and bakeries since their cities don't have quasi-industrial land that's 3 fsr in the downtown core.

Oh wait, all these cities maintain higher density throughout their city, and have far better coffee roasters and bakeries. These claims can be rejected with the simplest of observations. I maintain that mount pleasant industrial zoning is primarily about anti-change conservative politics than real concern for the art and food scene.

Depends on your definition of "bakery;" simple observation would also reveal that we're talking about a dedicated bread factory, not some cutesy pastry boutique with apartments on top. Most of the other mentioned businesses also require warehouse space.