Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Parliament Station

D'oh, don't know why I keep wanting it to be Lyon

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We shouldn't compare the C Line with REM. REM was designed years after the C Line and is a fully complete network. The C Line was designed to be completed in phases. What is now expected for Phase 2 and 3, was not fully known when Phase 1 was planned.

Virtually every new metro system/line being built in the last 15 years has included platform screen doors as a minimum, if not more enclosed stations. It wasn't a foreign idea at the time. What happened was that they started out solely looking at this as an LRT line (possibly because the previous proposal was LRT) and then designed around that. The Transitway traffic levels were already pre-Metro by most standards. Had they thought in terms of building a light metro, I'd bet we'd have ended up with something closer to REM.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I remember those. I would never use them because I was afraid of missing my bus. I would instead stand outside in the cold trying to figure out which of the dozens of buses might be mine. Couldn't always rely on the schedule.

And you couldn't consult the schedule anyway, because it almost always placed in a part of the station where, if you walked away from the platform to consult it, you'd stand a very good chance of missing your bus.

Almost everything about the Transitway project was poorly considered from a human design angle.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The biggest issue the TTC has is that their platforms couldn't support the weight of the PSD walls. So they'd have to do extensive work to rebuild many platforms. That's not nearly the lowball cost you think it is.

In our case, a fully enclosed platform would be less complex, because it's done from scratch. Enclosing a space with basic walls isn't that expensive when done at the time of construction and designed for. All those intricate roofs and windbreakers wouldn't be required if we built 80-100m long enclosed boxes.

REM is going to have plenty of enclosed platforms that aren't underground. Possibly all of the stations. How are they doing that? For starters, they are using higher capacity rolling stock and higher frequencies to allow for shorter stations (80m). That's the exact model we should have followed. It's great that we have rail, but this bit of cheaping out both limits systems capacity and reduces passenger comfort dramatically.

In a couple of years when REM opens and Ottawa residents get to try it out, our poor decision making and lack of foresight is going to be obvious.

Our system wouldn't support PSDs as the trains are asymmetrical end to end. The doors don't line up with the train when the train is turned around. A different train design like the Bombardier LRTs currently being built for Eglinton, Edmonton and in use on ion would be compatible.

[TheMatth69]

I don't think that switching from our system to a REM lile system would be that difficult. Many systems in the world even have mixed systems with Metro & LRT sharing tracks together (Rotterdam, Amsterdam just to name these two).
If ever there's a need for a REM like system, the only thing we'd have to do is upgrade the platforms. Systems like Newcastle Metro in the UK use low floor metros for exemple. And nothing is against Alstom, Siemens or Bombardier designing trains specifically for Ottawa (low floor trains), they do that everywhere.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Catenary

Our system wouldn't support PSDs as the trains are asymmetrical end to end. The doors don't line up with the train when the train is turned around. A different train design like the Bombardier LRTs currently being built for Eglinton, Edmonton and in use on ion would be compatible.

Yup. So if ever we decide to install platform screen doors, we will require a whole new fleet of trains.

Similarly, Vancouver considered platform screen doors however, they have so many different types of trains with varying door positions, so it's not feasible. Not sure why they're not looking into them for the Canada Line or if it was ever part of the plan. If it was, they were probably slashed as part of the mega value engineering that went into that line (as was the case in Ottawa).

[lrt's friend]

Our trains were designed to add a section to each train. That will change the location of the doors at the stations. Given that adding sections to trains will almost certainly be a gradual process, wouldn't that be a good reason for not building in screen doors on the platforms?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Catenary

Our system wouldn't support PSDs as the trains are asymmetrical end to end. The doors don't line up with the train when the train is turned around. A different train design like the Bombardier LRTs currently being built for Eglinton, Edmonton and in use on ion would be compatible.

Indeed. Which is why I said it was a fundamental design omission. And we'll get to deal with that for the rest of our lives.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Our trains were designed to add a section to each train. That will change the location of the doors at the stations. Given that adding sections to trains will almost certainly be a gradual process, wouldn't that be a good reason for not building in screen doors on the platforms?

This is why building platform screen doors is a fundamental design choice. Once you commit to that, you need to buy rolling stock (and plan fleet growth) that will fit the door locations.

[OTownandDown]

And why can't we have a small bus-shelter type area like the old Mackenzie King station? Its not like you've got to look for your bus coming, you just need to be aware that a train is entering the station.

During rush hours when most people will be impacted by the cold, their waits will be less than 3mins.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

And why can't we have a small bus-shelter type area like the old Mackenzie King station?

The mostly suburban council who don't use transit, are just fine with you freezing, while you wait for the train.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Yup. So if ever we decide to install platform screen doors, we will require a whole new fleet of trains.

Similarly, Vancouver considered platform screen doors however, they have so many different types of trains with varying door positions, so it's not feasible. Not sure why they're not looking into them for the Canada Line or if it was ever part of the plan. If it was, they were probably slashed as part of the mega value engineering that went into that line (as was the case in Ottawa).

They at least considered it at the beginning of the project for the confed line, all the earliest renderings and plans had them. The platform doors only vanished further along in the process. They weren't ever considering fully enclosed stations though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

They at least considered it at the beginning of the project for the confed line, the platform doors only vanished further along in the process. They weren't ever considering fully enclosed stations though.

Had they actually considered fully enclosed stations, we might have ended up with PSDs.....

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The mostly suburban council who don't use transit, are just fine with you freezing, while you wait for the train.

Quite frankly, after running for the bus in the -30C snowstorm, getting onto the over-heated, sweaty and wet bus, I'd probably prefer 2 mins of fresh air before getting on the train, that is, if the 3-5 mins frequency is maintained.

My point is, when the train is coming less frequently, so are the passengers, and therefore only a small amount of heated space is required.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The mostly suburban council who don't use transit, are just fine with you freezing, while you wait for the train.

If you freeze while waiting 3 minutes for the train then you'd be dead waiting 20 minutes for your transfer bus anyway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

If you freeze while waiting 3 minutes for the train then you'd be dead waiting 20 minutes for your transfer bus anyway.

At -20 with windchill, exposed skin freezes in minutes. Any sort of irregular ops and you'll be cold quick then. Designing a system that still requires me to the rider to act entirely like they're riding a bus, with no comfort upgrades after spending over $2 billion is lame.

Does anybody here think it's a bad choice that REM has so many enclosed stations? Why the constant excusing of poor decisions, just because it's our town? If anything, you should want to set the bar higher.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

My point is, when the train is coming less frequently, so are the passengers, and therefore only a small amount of heated space is required.

The reason I'd argue for an enclosed platform isn't so much about heated space, as protection from the elements. But if you have an enclosed space, radiant heaters will be far more effective too, leaving you a bit warmer. And simply taking away the windchill would go a long way to providing relief from the cold. Likewise, an enclosed platform also protects from rain the rest of the year.

The only downside I see is some greenhouse effect in the summer. But that would not be exceptionally challenging to mitigate against.

[J.OT13]

We've been comparing the Confederation Line with the REM a whole lot however, Edmonton and Calgary are arguably better comparisons. The Confederation is superior than anything built or proposed in those two cities. Fully grade separated, higher capacity, better frequency, more weather protection.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Quite frankly, after running for the bus in the -30C snowstorm,
.

It's never -30 when there is a snowstorm, as storms come with low pressure systems and higher temperatures.

-30 comes with high pressure, and generally clear skies.

Just teasing you a bit BTW.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We've been comparing the Confederation Line with the REM a whole lot however, Edmonton and Calgary are arguably better comparisons. The Confederation is superior than anything built or proposed in those two cities. Fully grade separated, higher capacity, better frequency, more weather protection.

One works expect some improvements when building two decades after the other two, spending more and anticipating higher levels of ridership.

The real question is why they didn't aim higher.

[Truenorth00]

Does anyone know when the STO buses switch to Albert and Slater? Are there any changes at all after Confederation Line launch?