Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Corvulpes

A quick Google reveals the lowest ever in Ottawa was -38.9 in 1933. That's why.

I should have said it could reach -40 but -38.9 is close enough since it is almost just as bad

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I should have said it could reach -40 but -38.9 is close enough since it is almost just as bad

That was almost a hundred years ago. It isn't practical to design infrastructure (for comfort) based on a something that happens every century. The coldest day in Ottawa is usually somewhere around -20.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That was almost a hundred years ago. It isn't practical to design infrastructure (for comfort) based on a something that happens every century. The coldest day in Ottawa is usually somewhere around -20.

I don't want to keep the discussion sidetracked around temperature, but the coldest night of the winter is usually in the mid to lower -20s.

But the reason that I pointed out it has never been as cold as -40 in Ottawa is because people always seem to throw that figure around as if it's like that very frequently during an average Ottawa winter.

It isn't. And while Ottawa does have *windchills* of -40 or even lower several times a winter, that's not common winter conditions for Ottawa either.

Though when it happens yes a bit of shelter and heat is always welcome.

[Truenorth00]

Not building a heavy rail metro with enclosed platforms. That was the boneheaded bit. These heaters are probably going to be as much of a joke as the Transitway ones. So nobody is really going to plan to have that keep them warm.

[OTownandDown]

Thanks for the review! Totally jealous, I wanted in on that testing action!

I emailed the guy at the City about free passes for the weekend but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

I got to ride the Confederation Line for about 4 hours this weekend as a part of a dress rehearsal. I can't share any pics from the outing because they're embargoed but overall here are my general thoughts and observations without sharing any photos:

1. I went into the dress rehearsal with the Trillium Line as my reference point. Confederation Line is as far removed from the Trillium Line as swimming in a wading pool is to swimming in an olympic swimming pool. It's really impressive.
2. Overall it doesn't even feel like Ottawa. Feels like a real city. The trains have that new train smell. It's wonderful.
3. Acceleration is smooth and faster than expected. You'll definitely want to make sure you're seated or properly braced before it gets going. On more than one occasion I witnessed somebody still standing when the train began accelerating and they almost lost their balance.
4. Rideau Centre station is huge and really deep. I got to ride the largest escalator in North America (or whatever its superlative is) and it feels like something from the London Underground. Very steep angle and very long. Very cool. The only criticism of the station I have is that the artwork that they put on the glass obscures the concourse level's view of the train level.
5. The roofing is really nice looking. Though surprisingly, the geometric roofing in Lyon station that looks like wood isn't actually wood. That wasn't clear to me in the pictures of the station but in real life you can see it's actually a metal material of some kind.
6. Breaking is fast and smooth. There's a subtle feeling like when ABS kicks in on a car that was surprising to me.
7. There's still some unfinished pieces (like an electrical rough-in at uOttawa station for example) here and there but overall it looks pretty close to finished.
8. There are very few areas with electric heating in each station (just 1 electrical heater in one small section per side that I saw) and those places that do have electric heating are weirdly exposed to the elements. There isn't really anything to keep the head in or even really shield much from the wind. I'm not sure how useful they'll be in -40C but I suppose the hope is that people won't be waiting long. Overall it seems like having the electric heaters on is akin to just burning money heating the open outdoors.
9. There appears to be designated busking spaces in most of the stations, which is a nice touch. I was glad to see it. I also learned that they're going to have vendor kiosks in many of the stations, though it was unclear whether they'd be able to hook in to the electrical and plumbing of the station or not.
10. The term "Confederation Line" is almost totally absent. It seems like OCTranspo is really leaning into the branding for "Line 1" pretty heavily.
11. Washrooms are heated and nice. Hopefully they're maintained suitably.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't want to keep the discussion sidetracked around temperature, but the coldest night of the winter is usually in the mid to lower -20s.

But the reason that I pointed out it has never been as cold as -40 in Ottawa is because people always seem to throw that figure around as if it's like that very frequently during an average Ottawa winter.

It isn't. And while Ottawa does have *windchills* of -40 or even lower several times a winter, that's not common winter conditions for Ottawa either.

Though when it happens yes a bit of shelter and heat is always welcome.

People always overexaggerate winter cold in Ottawa. Most people are actually shocked when you tell them the average afternoon temperature in January is -6.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not building a heavy rail metro with enclosed platforms. That was the boneheaded bit. These heaters are probably going to be as much of a joke as the Transitway ones. So nobody is really going to plan to have that keep them warm.

That would have added hundreds of millions to the overall cost. That means it would have taken many more years to extend the line further out. And before someone says something about "at least it wouldn't cross the Greenbelt", chances are the urban area would have been sacrificed to get to the suburbs (i.e. fewer stations).

It's important to note that the platforms, as in the floors, will be heated. This might help keep the stations a little warmer than the Transitway predecessor.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That would have added hundreds of millions to the overall cost. That means it would have taken many more years to extend the line further out. And before someone says something about "at least it wouldn't cross the Greenbelt", chances are the urban area would have been sacrificed to get to the suburbs (i.e. fewer stations).

It's important to note that the platforms, as in the floors, will be heated. This might help keep the stations a little warmer than the Transitway predecessor.

Can someone explain how to enclose a platform? As in, have a bus shelter with a door to get out on the platform when the train arrives? Aren't there small spaces such as elevator lobbies or something with heat? I'm thinking the only time you're going to stand and wait is at midnight on a Tuesday with maybe one or two other people. Weekday commuters will have trains so often it won't matter.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That would have added hundreds of millions to the overall cost. That means it would have taken many more years to extend the line further out. And before someone says something about "at least it wouldn't cross the Greenbelt", chances are the urban area would have been sacrificed to get to the suburbs (i.e. fewer stations).

It's important to note that the platforms, as in the floors, will be heated. This might help keep the stations a little warmer than the Transitway predecessor.

I disagree that it would have been more than 10% max. Probably not even half that in real life.It was estimated at $10 million per station by the TTC to install platform edge doors in 2010. But it would have been far easier and cheaper for Ottawa, to build enclosed platforms from scratch, with platforms originally designed to carry the edge wall or screen weight.

And since heavy rail trains have much higher capacity, shorter trains (and shorter stations) would meet Ottawa's needs for decades. A four-car Movia (TTC Rocket) would have a max crush capacity of just under 1000 pax, with 250+ seated, at just under 100m in length. Compare that to 700 pax in 100m long Citadis.

Improved operational costs would offset that added capital. Fully automated operation. No issues with debris from the platform ending up on the tracks. No risk of disruption from track incursions at stations. And possibly increased ridership from a higher quality of service.

For some crazy reason they (planners and council) didn't think Ottawa was ready for a "subway". Nor did they imagine a frequent service. I think they mostly envisioned a drop-in replacement for the Transitway. But then they ended up building much more anyway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Can someone explain how to enclose a platform? As in, have a bus shelter with a door to get out on the platform when the train arrives?

Not quite. Think of it like taking an elevator. Platform door lines up with train door. Both open and close at the same time. The whole platform is sheltered. I'd envision something like Singapore. Or Copenhagen. If you've ever taken the inter-terminal LINK train or Union Pearson Express in Toronto, those are good examples of fully enclosed stations in Canada. REM will have platform screen doors at all stations and probably some fully enclosed platforms when it launches.

Depending on other exits, the platforms and stations could have been fully heated/air conditioned or partially. Even the radiant heaters would have been far more effective with enclosed platforms.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not quite. Think of it like taking an elevator. Platform door lines up with train door. Both open and close at the same time. The whole platform is sheltered.

Depending on other exits, the platforms and stations could have been fully heated/air conditioned or partially. Even the radiant heaters would have been far more effective with enclosed platforms.

The vast majority of TTC stations are already pretty much fully enclosed: 4 walls and a roof with opening for the trains only. Davisville and Rosedale are the only open-air stations. Installing platform screen-doors, should they be floor to ceiling, will make all of them "fully-enclosed" as per your definition.

If we had installed platform screen doors on Ottawa's Line 1 while otherwise maintaining the designs, 9 of the 12 stations would still be open air. Our outdoor stations only have intricate, partial, roofs and wind-breakers. We would have needed much more elaborate designs, along with full heating/cooling systems, at all stations to have them "fully enclosed", so referencing the $10 million per station TTC estimate does not give a full picture.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Can someone explain how to enclose a platform? As in, have a bus shelter with a door to get out on the platform when the train arrives? Aren't there small spaces such as elevator lobbies or something with heat? I'm thinking the only time you're going to stand and wait is at midnight on a Tuesday with maybe one or two other people. Weekday commuters will have trains so often it won't matter.

Montreal's REM will be the only rapid transit system in Canada (and likely North America) with fully enclosed stations as per Truenorth00's definition. Four walls and a roof.

Subways are enclosed, as in protected from the weather, but not climate controlled. Outside air can still get into the station via the tunnel portals and, in some cases, subway entrances (think sidewalk stairs). In Toronto, Glancairn and Lawrence West are above ground, but enclosed as in, weather protected. So is the Scarborough RT I believe.





https://rem.info/fr

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The vast majority of TTC stations are already pretty much fully enclosed: 4 walls and a roof with opening for the trains only. Davisville and Rosedale are the only open-air stations. Installing platform screen-doors, should they be floor to ceiling, will make all of them "fully-enclosed" as per your definition.

If we had installed platform screen doors on Ottawa's Line 1 while otherwise maintaining the designs, 9 of the 12 stations would still be open air. Our outdoor stations only have intricate, partial, roofs and wind-breakers. We would have needed much more elaborate designs, along with full heating/cooling systems, at all stations to have them "fully enclosed", so referencing the $10 million per station TTC estimate does not give a full picture.

The biggest issue the TTC has is that their platforms couldn't support the weight of the PSD walls. So they'd have to do extensive work to rebuild many platforms. That's not nearly the lowball cost you think it is.

In our case, a fully enclosed platform would be less complex, because it's done from scratch. Enclosing a space with basic walls isn't that expensive when done at the time of construction and designed for. All those intricate roofs and windbreakers wouldn't be required if we built 80-100m long enclosed boxes.

REM is going to have plenty of enclosed platforms that aren't underground. Possibly all of the stations. How are they doing that? For starters, they are using higher capacity rolling stock and higher frequencies to allow for shorter stations (80m). That's the exact model we should have followed. It's great that we have rail, but this bit of cheaping out both limits systems capacity and reduces passenger comfort dramatically.

In a couple of years when REM opens and Ottawa residents get to try it out, our poor decision making and lack of foresight is going to be obvious.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The biggest issue the TTC has is that their platforms couldn't support the weight of the PSD walls. So they'd have to do extensive work to rebuild many platforms. That's not nearly the lowball cost you think it is.

In our case, a fully enclosed platform would be less complex, because it's done from scratch. Enclosing a space with basic walls isn't that expensive when done at the time of construction and designed for. All those intricate roofs and windbreakers wouldn't be required if we built 80-100m long enclosed boxes.

REM is going to have plenty of enclosed platforms that aren't underground. Possibly all of the stations. How are they doing that? For starters, they are using higher capacity rolling stock and higher frequencies to allow for shorter stations (80m). That's the exact model we should have followed. It's great that we have rail, but this bit of cheaping out both limits systems capacity and reduces passenger comfort dramatically.

In a couple of years when REM opens and Ottawa residents get to try it out, our poor decision making and lack of foresight is going to be obvious.

I agree that the REM model would have been better however, it was not as common at the time. The closest thing was Vancouver's Skytrain. For some strange reason, the City of Ottawa has been obsessed with LRT since 2000, and that's what we've got today.

What we have is not the best system we could have had, but it's certainly not the worse. We didn't build at grade LRT vulnerable to delays and traffic accidents like Kitchener-Waterloo or Edmonton and Calgary. We didn't under build like Vancouver and the Canada Line. We didn't over build like Toronto's Vaughan extension.

Even if we're not at the absolute top when it comes to innovation and technology, we still came out with a solid system.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Possibly all of the stations. How are they doing that? For starters, they are using higher capacity rolling stock and higher frequencies to allow for shorter stations (80m). That's the exact model we should have followed. It's great that we have rail, but this bit of cheaping out both limits systems capacity and reduces passenger comfort dramatically.

In a couple of years when REM opens and Ottawa residents get to try it out, our poor decision making and lack of foresight is going to be obvious.

Politicians wanted LRT because it looked cool. I always favoured a light metro (like the REM), I even had articles in the Citizen and a website for the Ottawa metrO.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Aren't there small spaces such as elevator lobbies or something with heat? I'm thinking the only time you're going to stand and wait is at midnight on a Tuesday with maybe one or two other people. Weekday commuters will have trains so often it won't matter.

When I was touring the stations, this was one of the things that jumped out at me. The only two enclosed spaces I saw outside of the underground stations were the elevators and the washrooms. Everything else is totally exposed to the elements. No doors, no enclosures. The "walls" are generally only on one or two or at best three sides and they're mostly just tempered glass with gaps between each pane. They also stop well short of the roof (even in the designated heating areas) meaning there are large gaps horizontally and vertically on the side(s) with the glass and there is an absence of any protection from the wind on all the other sides..

Before in the transitway, there used to be some at least partially enclosed spaces with some heat at stations like Billings and Hurdman. Those appear to all be gone now on the Confederation Line.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Before in the transitway, there used to be some at least partially enclosed spaces with some heat at stations like Billings and Hurdman. Those appear to all be gone now on the Confederation Line.

I remember those. I would never use them because I was afraid of missing my bus. I would instead stand outside in the cold trying to figure out which of the dozens of buses might be mine. Couldn't always rely on the schedule.

Of course, with a train where every train IS your train, a heated enclosed area would arguably more practical, at least for those times in the day when the frequency is reduced.

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa winters typically bottom out at -25 to -30. I have experienced close to -40 without windchill in my lifetime. That was horribly frigid.

Heated floors are designed to melt slush and ice in the stations .

We shouldn't compare the C Line with REM. REM was designed years after the C Line and is a fully complete network. The C Line was designed to be completed in phases. What is now expected for Phase 2 and 3, was not fully known when Phase 1 was planned.

Fully automated systems are typically designed to be almost completely grade separated (elevated or under ground). Driverless trains become less safe when there are long sections of track at grade. Access to the short section of the Canada Line running at grade is strictly controlled by high fences and barbed wire.

[kmcamp]

Walked into Winners today. The entrance into Parliament station is now complete. I guess because it goes directly into the station they have those "airlock" type fans to prevent cold air from the station getting into the store when people enter

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Walked into Winners today. The entrance into Lyon station is now complete. I guess because it goes directly into the station they have those "airlock" type fans to prevent cold air from the station getting into the store when people enter

Parliament Station