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  #12021  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 12:45 AM
sseguin sseguin is offline
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Originally Posted by Corvulpes View Post
-From the east, the nearest switchset to the tunnel allowing you to turn back without entering the tunnel is between Tremblay and Hurdman.
-There is no way to run a loop from the west unless you can get to Parliament at minimum. You need 2 switch sets.
For those interested, you can use our handy system map that shows the track positions and switches (among other things).

https://www.otrainfans.ca/system-map

Further to what Corvulpes said, limited service or partial service can only be achieved between stations with the use of switches to turn the trains around at the temporary terminus stations. There is a switch between uOttawa and Rideau (closer to uOttawa) but would require the trains to go into the tunnel. In this instance, if the system outage affected all train traffic in the tunnel......

Needless to say with Stage 2 and the line being made significantly longer, partial service would be more appealing/useful as you wouldn't be left with segments that are just 3-4 stations long, depending on where the issue occurred of course.

I have posted the statements made by Troy Charter on our forum, as well as a portion of the audio (provided by City Hall) for the overview by John Manconi. You can find that here: https://www.otrainfans.ca/forum/topic/5-o-train-service-interruptions/?do=findComment&comment=1277
     
     
  #12022  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 2:27 AM
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rocketphish rocketphish is offline
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Here's what happens if the LRT goes down when it's open to the public

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: September 6, 2019


There will be times when the $2.1-billion LRT system isn’t working and transit customers will just have to deal with it.

They might be shocked to hear that, but, if there’s one thing city transportation boss John Manconi has tried to prepare city council members and the public for, it’s the (hopefully very low) prospect of arriving at an LRT station during the hours of operation and the trains aren’t running.

The roughly 10-hour stoppage of the Confederation Line between Tunney’s Pasture and Hurdman stations on Wednesday, chalked up to a data transmission glitch in the tunnel that started at the same time a storm rolled through downtown, might make passengers wonder what would happen if trains suddenly stopped running when the LRT system is open to the public.

The public launch is scheduled for Sept. 14.

The list of reasons for a stoppage is likely endless, but some examples could include medical emergencies, police investigations or technical problems. The city doesn’t know for certain if severe weather could cause a stoppage.

“There is no system that is 100 per cent. Around the world you will never get a foolproof system,” Manconi said during a media briefing Thursday. “These interruptions will occur, whether it’s a thunderstorm or something else. The question becomes, do you have the plans in place to communicate and to make sure your customers are accounted for and managed safely and they have backup plans, such as limited bus bridging?”

If LRT is down, there will be some resources available for a replacement bus service, whose route will be marked as R1, but nothing that will come close to duplicating the capacity of the LRT line.

“We will have limited bus service. We don’t have thousands of buses waiting around,” Manconi said.

Transpo will largely count on LRT passengers finding their own methods of transportation if the trains aren’t running. The small-scale replacement bus service will be there, but Transpo’s expectation is people will walk, bike or order a ride from a taxi or private transportation company.

If a problem impacts only one set of tracks, crossover infrastructure between tracks allow trains to roll onto the other rails to deliver reduced service if it’s safe to do so.

Here’s another popular question from future LRT customers: what will happen if trains stop somewhere between stations? Will people be stuck in a train for hours?

That shouldn’t happen.

“Our system isn’t designed to do that,” Manconi said.

Transpo can manually guide the trains at reduced speeds to the closest station, he said.

Manconi said transit staff have chewed over several scenarios when it comes to reasons the LRT system needs to stop.

“You can never have 100 per cent, but you want to minimize that risk,” Manconi said. “Then the question becomes, when it does occur, and it has occurred across the country, across North America and the world, do you have evacuation procedures? We’re practising those things.”

The worst-case scenario is passengers needing to leave trains between stations.

“The thing you don’t want to do is do evacuations along the rail line, but I will tell you right now, that is one of the drills that we’re practising,” Manconi said. Only in the “rarest cases” would passengers be required to leave a train between stations and walk the line, he said.

If there is a problem causing a lengthy stoppage, Transpo would likely need some extra time to make sure all systems are ready again for passengers.

On Wednesday, staff realized what they had to do to fix the problem around the lunch hour, but it wasn’t until 2 p.m. that the train line between Tunney’s Pasture and Hurdman stations was ready for service again. Transit staff had to deploy sweep trains — the term used for the first trains launched each day, or after a long shutdown, without passengers to test the system — before entering back into a revenue service schedule.

Transpo will have a lengthy transition period after Sept. 14 to shake out any unidentified bugs.

The transit agency will continue running the bus system like it is today for three weeks after LRT launches, so if anything LRT-related goes down, there’s plenty of transit capacity to move people. After those three weeks, Transpo will pull buses off the road and activate the new LRT-era bus network designed to bring people to LRT stations for any rapid travel between Tunney’s Pasture and Blair stations.

As of Friday, the city still wasn’t certain why three data transmitters tripped to the off position around 3 a.m. Wednesday.

Those transmitters, which are installed across the rail line, send information to the control centre about where trains are located. There hadn’t been a direct link drawn between the tripped transmitters and the storm, but the possibility was under investigation.

Coun. Allan Hubley, the chair of the transit commission, acknowledged Friday that the city has to do a better job of communicating with the media and public when there’s a Transpo-related problem.

The city released a high-level written explanation to reporters late Wednesday afternoon when asked about the early-day stoppage, but it wasn’t until late Thursday afternoon that Manconi offered a more detailed explanation.

Hubley said he’s working to make sure public communication improves in the new LRT era of Transpo.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...rt-goes-down-when-its-open-to-the-public
     
     
  #12023  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 2:48 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sseguin View Post
For those interested, you can use our handy system map that shows the track positions and switches (among other things).

https://www.otrainfans.ca/system-map

Further to what Corvulpes said, limited service or partial service can only be achieved between stations with the use of switches to turn the trains around at the temporary terminus stations. There is a switch between uOttawa and Rideau (closer to uOttawa) but would require the trains to go into the tunnel. In this instance, if the system outage affected all train traffic in the tunnel......

Needless to say with Stage 2 and the line being made significantly longer, partial service would be more appealing/useful as you wouldn't be left with segments that are just 3-4 stations long, depending on where the issue occurred of course.

I have posted the statements made by Troy Charter on our forum, as well as a portion of the audio (provided by City Hall) for the overview by John Manconi. You can find that here: https://www.otrainfans.ca/forum/topic/5-o-train-service-interruptions/?do=findComment&comment=1277
While it seems strange there's no Western turnback point, maybe the logic for the designers was if the tunnel was down both Tunney's and Hurdman have large bus terminals to handle the shuttles turning around.
     
     
  #12024  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 4:04 PM
TheMatth69 TheMatth69 is offline
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Just a reminder, the uOttawa turn-back point is before the Tunnel and not in the tunnel. It's located in the trench leading to the East-Portal, just in front of uOttawa's FSS building.
     
     
  #12025  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 4:19 PM
sseguin sseguin is offline
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Originally Posted by TheMatth69 View Post
Just a reminder, the uOttawa turn-back point is before the Tunnel and not in the tunnel. It's located in the trench leading to the East-Portal, just in front of uOttawa's FSS building.
Thanks for correcting this. I thought it was a bit closer to the portal, but it appears the train would have enough room to pass through the switch before having to pass the Eastern tunnel portal.

Using Googleearth, it would appear to have about 110metres or so of space between the portal and the switch, with the trains being approximately 97 metres long coupled.
     
     
  #12026  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 6:06 PM
Corvulpes Corvulpes is offline
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It is doable but unless you go down to Rideau the operator would have to exit the train onto the guideway in order to switch ends OR you would need an operator in the trailing cab to change direction.

WRT Wednesday, they were actually avoiding Zone 2, not the tunnel. Zone 2 covers Lyon to Lees.
     
     
  #12027  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2019, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
Not necessarily, Edmonton ran on visual only mode for a while with their signalling hell. We could do the same, these are streetcar based trains after all and they can run without any signalling at all. We'd just have to run at a much reduced speed on full manual, which is better than nothing.

In this case, because there was no passengers it made sense to take the time to fully investigate. I don't think they would have waited so long after reset if it was an actual service day.
Running on visual might not be as realistic for a grade separated metro line compared to a ground level tram type system.

Reducing speeds and frequency would dramatically reduce the capacity, which is not something we want out of a high usage trunk line.

We would need to run parallel bus service to support the lower rail service anyway, so might as well shut down that part of the line completely while the issue is resolved. And in Wednesday's case, it's better to maintain the high level service for part of the Line (Hurdman to Blair) and shut-down the problematic stretch (Hurdman to Tunney's) than reduce service on the entire line and have to run parallel bus service on the entire Line instead of just the stretch causing issues.
     
     
  #12028  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2019, 8:03 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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I got to ride the Confederation Line for about 4 hours this weekend as a part of a dress rehearsal. I can't share any pics from the outing because they're embargoed but overall here are my general thoughts and observations without sharing any photos:
  1. I went into the dress rehearsal with the Trillium Line as my reference point. Confederation Line is as far removed from the Trillium Line as swimming in a wading pool is to swimming in an olympic swimming pool. It's really impressive.
  2. Overall it doesn't even feel like Ottawa. Feels like a real city. The trains have that new train smell. It's wonderful.
  3. Acceleration is smooth and faster than expected. You'll definitely want to make sure you're seated or properly braced before it gets going. On more than one occasion I witnessed somebody still standing when the train began accelerating and they almost lost their balance.
  4. Rideau Centre station is huge and really deep. I got to ride the largest escalator in North America (or whatever its superlative is) and it feels like something from the London Underground. Very steep angle and very long. Very cool. The only criticism of the station I have is that the artwork that they put on the glass obscures the concourse level's view of the train level.
  5. The roofing is really nice looking. Though surprisingly, the geometric roofing in Lyon station that looks like wood isn't actually wood. That wasn't clear to me in the pictures of the station but in real life you can see it's actually a metal material of some kind.
  6. Breaking is fast and smooth. There's a subtle feeling like when ABS kicks in on a car that was surprising to me.
  7. There's still some unfinished pieces (like an electrical rough-in at uOttawa station for example) here and there but overall it looks pretty close to finished.
  8. There are very few areas with electric heating in each station (just 1 electrical heater in one small section per side that I saw) and those places that do have electric heating are weirdly exposed to the elements. There isn't really anything to keep the head in or even really shield much from the wind. I'm not sure how useful they'll be in -40C but I suppose the hope is that people won't be waiting long. Overall it seems like having the electric heaters on is akin to just burning money heating the open outdoors.
  9. There appears to be designated busking spaces in most of the stations, which is a nice touch. I was glad to see it. I also learned that they're going to have vendor kiosks in many of the stations, though it was unclear whether they'd be able to hook in to the electrical and plumbing of the station or not.
  10. The term "Confederation Line" is almost totally absent. It seems like OCTranspo is really leaning into the branding for "Line 1" pretty heavily.
  11. Washrooms are heated and nice. Hopefully they're maintained suitably.
     
     
  #12029  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2019, 10:48 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passwordisnt123 View Post
I got to ride the Confederation Line for about 4 hours this weekend as a part of a dress rehearsal. I can't share any pics from the outing because they're embargoed but overall here are my general thoughts and observations without sharing any photos:
  1. I went into the dress rehearsal with the Trillium Line as my reference point. Confederation Line is as far removed from the Trillium Line as swimming in a wading pool is to swimming in an olympic swimming pool. It's really impressive.
  2. Overall it doesn't even feel like Ottawa. Feels like a real city. The trains have that new train smell. It's wonderful.
  3. Acceleration is smooth and faster than expected. You'll definitely want to make sure you're seated or properly braced before it gets going. On more than one occasion I witnessed somebody still standing when the train began accelerating and they almost lost their balance.
  4. Rideau Centre station is huge and really deep. I got to ride the largest escalator in North America (or whatever its superlative is) and it feels like something from the London Underground. Very steep angle and very long. Very cool. The only criticism of the station I have is that the artwork that they put on the glass obscures the concourse level's view of the train level.
  5. The roofing is really nice looking. Though surprisingly, the geometric roofing in Lyon station that looks like wood isn't actually wood. That wasn't clear to me in the pictures of the station but in real life you can see it's actually a metal material of some kind.
  6. Breaking is fast and smooth. There's a subtle feeling like when ABS kicks in on a car that was surprising to me.
  7. There's still some unfinished pieces (like an electrical rough-in at uOttawa station for example) here and there but overall it looks pretty close to finished.
  8. There are very few areas with electric heating in each station (just 1 electrical heater in one small section per side that I saw) and those places that do have electric heating are weirdly exposed to the elements. There isn't really anything to keep the head in or even really shield much from the wind. I'm not sure how useful they'll be in -40C but I suppose the hope is that people won't be waiting long. Overall it seems like having the electric heaters on is akin to just burning money heating the open outdoors.
  9. There appears to be designated busking spaces in most of the stations, which is a nice touch. I was glad to see it. I also learned that they're going to have vendor kiosks in many of the stations, though it was unclear whether they'd be able to hook in to the electrical and plumbing of the station or not.
  10. The term "Confederation Line" is almost totally absent. It seems like OCTranspo is really leaning into the branding for "Line 1" pretty heavily.
  11. Washrooms are heated and nice. Hopefully they're maintained suitably.
I believe the overhead heaters are direct radiant heat, so they aren't really heating up the air at all. i do think they were a bit stingy with them though.
     
     
  #12030  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2019, 11:26 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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I believe the overhead heaters are direct radiant heat, so they aren't really heating up the air at all. i do think they were a bit stingy with them though.
Ah. That makes sense. That is an improvement over what I thought but even still though, I wish the heated sections weren't so small and totally exposed to the elements. I'm skeptical about how much comfort they're going to provide in those -40C winter days.
     
     
  #12031  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 AM
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If it is any consolation it has never gotten down to -40 in Ottawa.
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  #12032  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 12:13 AM
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Isn’t -22 with windchill as bad?
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  #12033  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Isn’t -22 with windchill as bad?
Yes it is and with it does reach -40 so I have no idea why he said that when it's not true
     
     
  #12034  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 2:10 AM
Corvulpes Corvulpes is offline
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Yes it is and with it does reach -40 so I have no idea why he said that when it's not true
A quick Google reveals the lowest ever in Ottawa was -38.9 in 1933. That's why.
     
     
  #12035  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 4:14 AM
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Originally Posted by passwordisnt123 View Post
I also learned that they're going to have vendor kiosks in many of the stations, though it was unclear whether they'd be able to hook in to the electrical and plumbing of the station or not.
There will be a retail space at 4 stations and they will have connections to electrical and plumbing, though I'ts my understanding that they won't have access to hot water.

If I'm not mistaken, we should be finding out which vendor was selected for the retail bid sometime this week.
     
     
  #12036  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 4:33 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by passwordisnt123 View Post
There are very few areas with electric heating in each station (just 1 electrical heater in one small section per side that I saw) and those places that do have electric heating are weirdly exposed to the elements. There isn't really anything to keep the head in or even really shield much from the wind. I'm not sure how useful they'll be in -40C but I suppose the hope is that people won't be waiting long. Overall it seems like having the electric heaters on is akin to just burning money heating the open outdoors.
Are they the radiant type like at bus transitway stations? If so, they are meant to warm exposed skin, not the air.
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  #12037  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 4:33 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Isn’t -22 with windchill as bad?
If you're not in the wind, there is no windchill.
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  #12038  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 4:34 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Yes it is and with it does reach -40 so I have no idea why he said that when it's not true
Windchill isn't temperature though.
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  #12039  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 7:07 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
There is. And that's what they used to drive the two trains to Tunney's once the ATO shut-down.

The issue is that we don't have a backup to the Communications Based Train Control system. If a few of the transmitters go down, we can't know the positioning of trains all the time, regardless of the trains' setting (auto or manual). It' safe to park the trains down the line but not to run service, regular or reduced.

In order to continue service, we would have to also install an ancient Moving Block system, but that's not worth the cost for a few times a year.
There is only one line with 13 stations. Drivers could be instructed to wait at a station until the next station is physically clear (which could be done with a radio).

It would not be ideal, but better than a complete system failure that lasts most of the day.
     
     
  #12040  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 9:04 AM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
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Windchill isn't temperature though.
No it isn't but it is what we actually feel during the winter when there is wind which is most of the time.
     
     
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