Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Small note: wasn't PP a government initiative in which a bunch of commercially healthy privately held buildings were expropriated to create the 'way of the future'? I wouldn't exactly call that developer driven.

Yes, though I was mainly aping the progressive (ie, left-leaning, critical theorist, etc.) view on Portage Place which existed up until last week.

What's a "Progressive urbanist"? Aren't all urbanists, just plain urbanists, there are no distinct characteristics between the?


Does this mean "progressive" in a political sense, like Democrat, Socialist, Communist (Commons)?


I'm lost here.

Yes, I mean progressive urbanists as in the political sense: the David Harvey-reading, knock on doors for the NDP, intern at CCPA, profit-is-a-dirty-word, left-leaning urbanists. As opposed to pro-development "market urbanists," and generally ones who don't apply a critical lense to absolutely everything.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by Bdog

You forgot:

Progressive Urbanists, c. 1983-1990: A downtown mall like the proposed Portage Place is the ideal mixed-use downtown development. The perfect blend of retail, entertainment, restaurants, the arts, housing for different incomes, and a promenade is exactly what Portage Avenue needs. Not only will it be well served by Winnipeg Transit, but it will also be home to a hidden parkade for those who choose to drive. The ideal urban planning project!

Haha yep! That's usually forgotten but it was very much the sentiment in planning/urbanist circles at the time, as immortalized in this TV news interview.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by davequanbury

Sounds pretty reasonable to me

Reasonable how? "Tossing people on the street"!? - it's a food court ffs. They can go to Cityplace. Just wait until one of the downtown dollar stores gets replaced with something and he writes about how it's an attack on dollar store shoppers' fundamental human rights!

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by wardlow

Yes, though I was mainly aping the progressive (ie, left-leaning, critical theorist, etc.) view on Portage Place which existed up until last week.



Yes, I mean progressive urbanists as in the political sense: the David Harvey-reading, knock on doors for the NDP, intern at CCPA, profit-is-a-dirty-word, left-leaning urbanists. As opposed to pro-development "market urbanists," and generally ones who don't apply a critical lense to absolutely everything.

Fair enough. I don't believe that we really disagree on this one, just wanted to straighten that out

[wardlow]

I was casually listening in on some of the people speaking to city council this morning about the future of Portage Place... something about how the mall needs to be kept for seven generations? Okay fine, but one generation ago this was a brand new high-end shopping mall that my older sister tells me was where "all the girls from Tuxedo shopped." Now suddenly it can't ever change?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wardlow

I was casually listening in on some of the people speaking to city council this morning about the future of Portage Place... something about how the mall needs to be kept for seven generations? Okay fine, but one generation ago this was a brand new high-end shopping mall that my older sister tells me was where "all the girls from Tuxedo shopped." Now suddenly it can't ever change?

People have a certain attachment to the place and it's fine, the place does have value as a community gathering point. It's a reflection of downtown Winnipeg in all its gritty glory, and that makes some people love it and other people hate it.

But at the end of the day it's private property with major financial implications for the landlords and the City, so decisions will have to be made on that basis.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by wardlow

I was casually listening in on some of the people speaking to city council this morning about the future of Portage Place... something about how the mall needs to be kept for seven generations? Okay fine, but one generation ago this was a brand new high-end shopping mall that my older sister tells me was where "all the girls from Tuxedo shopped." Now suddenly it can't ever change?

Dumb. It's not a drop in, community centre or homeless shelter, it's a private enterprise, i don't know why these people feel so entitled to sitting in a food court. I guess there will always be detractors to progress, reinvestment in this mall can't come soon enough.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by esquire

People have a certain attachment to the place and it's fine, the place does have value as a community gathering point. It's a reflection of downtown Winnipeg in all its gritty glory, and that makes some people love it and other people hate it.

But at the end of the day it's private property with major financial implications for the landlords and the City, so decisions will have to be made on that basis.

Oh yeah, and I don't mean to scoff at the notion that it's a popular community hub. I know that it is, especially for many people who live in and around downtown. It may not be pretty, but it's become a definite "third space" for the neighbourhood.

But like you said, it's a real estate transaction, not a divestment of a public asset like a city park or community centre.

[oftheMoon]

Check out St. Vital Centre foodcourt any given weekday morning - entirely different demographic and in an urban setting, but same principle of people just hanging around socializing.

Notwithstanding the hoards of teenage kids that are dropped off in mini-vans to just hang out at the mall - it's just what happens with malls.

So, now the people of PP are just concerned of losing their place - I get that. But unfortunately that's not a reason for a developer to do what they want with their space.

[EdwardTH]

Arguing that a dingy food court is somehow an irreplaceable cultural amenity is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[buzzg]

And frankly, continuing to operate that food court is slowly becoming less and less profitable. With lots of new restaurants around, cityplace nearby with many of the same offerings in a nicer setting, and Hargrave Street Market opening soon – PP Food Court is going to struggle to keep paying customers coming.

[The Jabroni]

That potential of losing the PP food court is definitely a concern. Although I wouldn't rule them out just yet (depending on what the new landlords will do to Portage Place).

If they can keep those "mall food" restaurants in place as an affordable alternative to the Hargrave Street Market and Food Hall, then by all means. I'm not saying the Food Hall will be expensive per se. I'd just tidy up the existing food court, like they did in Garden City Mall, and just continue the food services there. That's it.

And if/when the Hargrave Street Market and Food Hall are a huge hit, then that would definitely force Starlight to step up their game.

Not sure where the fear of losing the space and the status quo of Portage Place came from, but what I can say is that this was brought onto ourselves for what it is right now, and I feel that something needs to be done right now. Whether it to be tear it down and reunite Edmonton Street, or do a complete renovation by recladding/reconditioning the exterior, new curtain glass, new reclad the skywalks, and pretty much bring the whole mall into the 21st Century, not stuck in 1987.

I mean I admit, I do like the charm and the colours for its time, but frankly, it's time for it to move on. Hell, even Polo Park got out of 1986 in 2012.

And obviously, with the current "riff-raff" that hangs out there, it's obviously a more deeper issue than potentially losing a "community space" in Portage Place. I'm sure a compromise can be done though.

[Wpg_Guy]

I believe part of the agreement is transfer of ownership of the skywalks so maybe we will see some reinvestment in them hopefully a more narrow sleeker look.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

That potential of losing the PP food court is definitely a concern. Although I wouldn't rule them out just yet (depending on what the new landlords will do to Portage Place).

[...]

Not sure where the fear of losing the space and the status quo of Portage Place came from, but what I can say is that this was brought onto ourselves for what it is right now, and I feel that something needs to be done right now. Whether it to be tear it down and reunite Edmonton Street, or do a complete renovation by recladding/reconditioning the exterior, new curtain glass, new reclad the skywalks, and pretty much bring the whole mall into the 21st Century, not stuck in 1987.

I'm also not sure why people expect the food court to disappear. It's an extremely strategic location right on Portage, and if hundreds of students are living directly above, it's only going to get busier. The new Hargrave food hall is serving a totally different market.

The exterior brick cladding of Portage Place still looks great. And honestly, I think the interior has aged pretty well too (aside from the food court). OK, teal and coral are not exactly trendy colours anymore, but it's still a brighter and more pleasant space than CityPlace, which is so bland and beige. If they renovated the interior of Portage Place and made it look more like CityPlace, I think that would actually be a step down...

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

I'm also not sure why people expect the food court to disappear. It's an extremely strategic location right on Portage, and if hundreds of students are living directly above, it's only going to get busier. The new Hargrave food hall is serving a totally different market.

The exterior brick cladding of Portage Place still looks great. And honestly, I think the interior has aged pretty well too (aside from the food court). OK, teal and coral are not exactly trendy colours anymore, but it's still a brighter and more pleasant space than CityPlace, which is so bland and beige. If they renovated the interior of Portage Place and made it look more like CityPlace, I think that would actually be a step down...

I don't think that it needs too much work aesthetically but there's still lots that can be done in terms of functionality. I hope whatever the plan is includes bringing the theatre back online.

[trueviking]

while I completely understand that the food court is an important social space for the surrounding neighbourhoods, it is being portrayed as a public space. It isn't. It is a private business and can be shut down tomorrow. The sale has no bearing on whether it stays open or not and blocking a sale doesn't ensure it remains open.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

Notwithstanding the hoards of teenage kids that are dropped off in mini-vans to just hang out at the mall - it's just what happens with malls.

Teenage girls (normally) from the 'burbs who visit suburban malls don't go around getting into fights, stabbing or shootin' people at the mall though.

They're there to SHOP and possibly have a snack at the food court with their friend(s) ... or their Mom.

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[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

Teenage girls (normally) from the 'burbs who visit suburban malls don't go around getting into fights, stabbing or shootin' people at the mall though.

Yeah, neither do the people who hang out inside Portage Place... Sure there are incidents in the bus shelters outside and the alley out back. But I've eaten lunch in that food court many times and I can't say I've ever seen anyone do anything wrong in there other than being poor and not white. The mall is depressing as hell and I'm ecstatic for it to be redeveloped but still, whenever that mall is discussed it is pretty shameful to see how terrified the average Winnipegger is of poor brown people.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

Yeah, neither do the people who hang out inside Portage Place... Sure there are incidents in the bus shelters outside and the alley out back. But I've eaten lunch in that food court many times and I can't say I've ever seen anyone do anything wrong in there other than being poor and not white. The mall is depressing as hell and I'm ecstatic for it to be redeveloped but still, whenever that mall is discussed it is pretty shameful to see how terrified the average Winnipegger is of poor brown people.

I agree with every word of this. Very well put. It seems that for many "average" Winnipeggers, any group of Native people is automatically considered sketchy or scary.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

Yeah, neither do the people who hang out inside Portage Place... Sure there are incidents in the bus shelters outside and the alley out back. But I've eaten lunch in that food court many times and I can't say I've ever seen anyone do anything wrong in there other than being poor and not white. The mall is depressing as hell and I'm ecstatic for it to be redeveloped but still, whenever that mall is discussed it is pretty shameful to see how terrified the average Winnipegger is of poor brown people.

Funny, I was just thinking of the number of times I have walked through that mall and never been accosted by anyone. I think the new ownership (provided the sale goes through as many of us hope) might have to really work to demonstrate the security of the area once revisions are done. I am certain there are a lot of people just waiting for the first sign of anything that smacks of criminal behaviour to denounce it as a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" (if that doesn't get me into copyright trouble).