Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with that is that in the meantime renters have no where to live and the condos that relace these people are left vacant waiting for a flip.............when you commodify a city you commodify the people that live there. Metrotown is losing all of it's rental housing very much with the blessings of it's City Hall. Coquitlam has lost 1400 renters around it's new SkyTrain stations all to make way for empty condos used as safety deposit boxes. Cambie of course is a complete write-off as illustrated by Marine Gateway where the first phase of 220 condos sold were sold to just 80 people.

People in the Valley left Vancouver because it was completely unaffordable even for those making more than 100k. The last thing we want is for our neighbours to be thrown out yet again and have to move further inland to Abby or Chill just to enjoy a modest standard of living that the rest of the country takes for granted. SkyTrain is good at moving commuters but unfortunately due to BC's corrupt politicians it is also very good at moving people out of their homes.

Politicians love nothing more than a SkyTrain ribbon cutting ceremony but you can be damn sure they won't be there helping everyone load the moving truck. In an odd twist of logic, renters tend to be more transit dependent and when SkyTrain comes it is the renters who pay the price with evictions and longer commutes.

Condonland makes several false assumptions here: that megatowers and demovictions are inevitable with SkyTrain, that they're magically prevented with a "tram-train," and that they can't be alleviated with planning and zoning (the things that actually cause them).

If a politician wants 50+ storey condos, then whether the route is SkyTrain or interurban or autonomous blimp or even a bike lane, they will rezone the whole area for 50+ storey condos. We saw that with Corrigan's Metrotown and Hepner's Newton-Guildford; given other light rail projects in North America, one could easily argue that trams promote gentrification.

If a politician wants to grow the community without destroying it, they will rezone for more height and more density, but find ways to protect existing residents and businesses. We're seeing that right now with Broadway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The idea of a rail link to the Fraser Valley is a valid one, but so many of the moves taken by this group just destroy their credibility and really make their proposal harder to legitimately consider.

1. Their inflammatory language. Whether in their presentations or on their blog, they talk about how their proposal is the only smart way to go, there's caps and exclamation marks everywhere, they baselessly attack existing research done by reputable consultants without any more facts of their own other than "trust us."

2. The TransLink bashing. It's often hard to tell if they're actually a pro-Fraser Valley rail group and not just an anti-TransLink group. Again, both in their presentations and on their website, they talk about how wasteful TransLink is, how stupid TransLink is to go with SkyTrain, etc. Why treat TransLink so confrontationally if you'd arguably need their blessing to get your rail line through? What credible organization just openly shit talks other organizations?

3. Their plan is really half-baked. For example, it absolutely will not be anywhere close to the low price they keep quoting for building. For service, why do you need frequencies as high as they're proposing for a line that shows no signs of concurrent demand? Presenting anything as "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO" is not inspiring.

Overall, the idea of improvements for transit to the Valley is a good one. I take the Fraser Valley Express bus a couple times a week and it's always packed, and the data backs that up. Continued improvements to frequency, then maybe HOV lanes, and one day a commuter rail service all make sense. But when you're presenting your idea as oppositional to Surrey-Langley SkyTrain you sound like you care less about the promotion of your project than with the diminishment of another. Further connecting the Valley to Metro Van is good; kneecapping Surrey-Langley service is not at all worth this cost however. The Fraser Valley will doubtlessly become more integrated in the Metro Vancouver transit system, but this will not be the way it happens, nor should it, for all the reasons mentioned earlier.

I suspect that zweisystem had something to do with the rhetoric.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If a politician wants 50+ storey condos, then whether the route is SkyTrain or interurban or autonomous blimp or even a bike lane, they will rezone the whole area for 50+ storey condos.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that Skytrain brings densification, because what Skytrain brings is demand -and demand brings developers, and development brings tax revenues which politicians find almost irresistible. There's a pretty direct cause-and-effect relationship there, and while it's sure possible to point the finger at the politicians the truth of the matter is that it's the arrival of Skytrain service that enables their actions.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm sympathetic to the argument that Skytrain brings densification, because what Skytrain brings is demand -and demand brings developers, and development brings tax revenues which politicians find almost irresistible. There's a pretty direct cause-and-effect relationship there, and while it's sure possible to point the finger at the politicians the truth of the matter is that it's the arrival of Skytrain service that enables their actions.

True, but again, light rail has spurred as many condo proposals as SkyTrain. It seems evident that any kind of billion-dollar transit investment results in developers circling around like it's Shark Week.

[ssiguy]

You guys are bringing up very valid point and I appreciate the feedback. That said however you have not offered any alternatives to the Valley Rail. The SkyTrain is a connector between Langley and Surrey and again that definately has it's selling points. The problem however is that it will do nothing to relieve the traffic in the Valley. It may help shape development in the future but not employment or education patterns. The vast majority of people SoF both work and live here and the percentage who do has skyrocketed in tadem with Vancouver housing prices. 15 years ago 70% of people in Surrey & Langley worked NoF and now that figure is down to 35% and that will continue to decrease as employers can't afford to operate in Vancouver and can't find workers to work there.

I listed a litany of different road projects that already should have been done 30 years ago and yet nothing is planned. The roads and major trucking routes in the Valley are grossly over capcity which not only makes commuting hell but also has made buses ineffective and unreliable. You need good highways to run commuter type buses as Translink found out decades ago. They didn't have buses going over the Port Mann for 20 years not due to lack of demand but because it was so congested that they couldn't keep any form of timetable and it's only after they replaced it wilth the HOV lanes that they started running them again.

So how do you propose we connect the 1.1 million people SoF to one another when there are no road improvements in sight and buses are no longer optional? I get why some may not support the Valley Rail but what exactly do you propose as an alternative?

[Migrant_Coconut]

GlassCity offered some seven posts ago: much more bus service in tandem with the SkyTrain (particularly a higher-frequency FVX), leading to road expansion and/or HOV lanes, eventually leading to commuter rail. All of that currently falls under BC Transit, unless Abbotsford and Chilliwack would like to join the TransLink tax structure. Neither organization is rolling in money right now.

By all means, Fraser Valley needs more service, but they need to realize that hey, so does everybody else. Cutting ahead of the line and demanding that TransLink spend one and a quarter billion (siphoned away from other communities patiently waiting in line) for a solution to a nonexisting problem that won't solve jack? Not exactly helpful.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You guys are bringing up very valid point and I appreciate the feedback. That said however you have not offered any alternatives to the Valley Rail. The SkyTrain is a connector between Langley and Surrey and again that definately has it's selling points. The problem however is that it will do nothing to relieve the traffic in the Valley. It may help shape development in the future but not employment or education patterns. The vast majority of people SoF both work and live here and the percentage who do has skyrocketed in tadem with Vancouver housing prices. 15 years ago 70% of people in Surrey & Langley worked NoF and now that figure is down to 35% and that will continue to decrease as employers can't afford to operate in Vancouver and can't find workers to work there.

I listed a litany of different road projects that already should have been done 30 years ago and yet nothing is planned. The roads and major trucking routes in the Valley are grossly over capcity which not only makes commuting hell but also has made buses ineffective and unreliable. You need good highways to run commuter type buses as Translink found out decades ago. They didn't have buses going over the Port Mann for 20 years not due to lack of demand but because it was so congested that they couldn't keep any form of timetable and it's only after they replaced it wilth the HOV lanes that they started running them again.

So how do you propose we connect the 1.1 million people SoF to one another when there are no road improvements in sight and buses are no longer optional? I get why some may not support the Valley Rail but what exactly do you propose as an alternative?

How about HOV lanes from Abbotsford to Langley with the FVX running an express bus on it, then adding WCE service from Abbotsford to Coquitlam Centre and Waterfront.

[ssiguy]

^ That qould help but again the province has cancelled all the road expansion in the Valley except for a paultry 6 km one lane in each direction on HWY#1. You smply can't have it both ways........ little transit AND horrid roads.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You guys are bringing up very valid point and I appreciate the feedback. That said however you have not offered any alternatives to the Valley Rail. The SkyTrain is a connector between Langley and Surrey and again that definately has it's selling points. The problem however is that it will do nothing to relieve the traffic in the Valley. It may help shape development in the future but not employment or education patterns. The vast majority of people SoF both work and live here and the percentage who do has skyrocketed in tadem with Vancouver housing prices. 15 years ago 70% of people in Surrey & Langley worked NoF and now that figure is down to 35% and that will continue to decrease as employers can't afford to operate in Vancouver and can't find workers to work there.

I listed a litany of different road projects that already should have been done 30 years ago and yet nothing is planned. The roads and major trucking routes in the Valley are grossly over capcity which not only makes commuting hell but also has made buses ineffective and unreliable. You need good highways to run commuter type buses as Translink found out decades ago. They didn't have buses going over the Port Mann for 20 years not due to lack of demand but because it was so congested that they couldn't keep any form of timetable and it's only after they replaced it wilth the HOV lanes that they started running them again.

So how do you propose we connect the 1.1 million people SoF to one another when there are no road improvements in sight and buses are no longer optional? I get why some may not support the Valley Rail but what exactly do you propose as an alternative?

Road infrastructure has not kept up with the demand along Hwy #1 obviously. They are a good 20 years behind. The 555 from Langley connects with the Lougheed Skytrain. The bus is always packed but it seems to work. Once Skytrain reaches Langley, service will probably be reduced on the 555, but not eliminated, as bus lines will feed into the Langley downtown area. The key to better service for the valley in the short term is a better road system to feed buses into the "to be built" skytrain. Commuter rail from Chilliwack is a long ways off unfortunately. Only so much money available.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

^ That qould help but again the province has cancelled all the road expansion in the Valley except for a paultry 6 km one lane in each direction on HWY#1. You smply can't have it both ways........ little transit AND horrid roads.

Because the government has failed to adequately upgrade the transportation system in the Lower Mainland in response to population growth for political reasons...

So as such, the province should invest in a passenger rail service that doesn't provide for the needs of today or tomorrow at great expense... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[ssiguy]

? So I can only assume that you support a MASSIVE road expansion and upgrade? SkyTrain will do nothing to relieve road traffic little alone safety on the roads which in BC is brought down to the lowest common denominator.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

? So I can only assume that you support a MASSIVE road expansion and upgrade? SkyTrain will do nothing to relieve road traffic little alone safety on the roads which in BC is brought down to the lowest common denominator.

I support 4 lanes each way from Langley to Chill...

[ssiguy]

Actually so do I and 10 lanes from Abbostford to Langley but that is just the start. They must bring the SFPR up to full freeway standards, build the Serpentine Exp, build more overpasses on HWY #15 & 10 and widen them both and widen King George, HWY#99 to 8 lanes, Langley By-pass, and twin the Fraser Highway. These things should have been done 20 years ago. Now we have grinding traffic and the smog that comes with it, pathetic transport routes with full transports illegally barrelling down secondary roads desperately trying to find alternative routes, and accident rates that are soaring and response times for them down significantly because first reponders can't access the accidents on HWY#1.

The problem?............absolutely none of these things are even being contemplated little alone built within the next decade. Compare this to Ontario with a massive freeway system, the safest roads in NA, and yet higher transit ridership in both Ottawa and Toronto than Vancouver. This is something the touchy-feely crowd in Vancouver has yet to grasp..............great cities not have great TRANSIT systems but rather great TRANSPORTATION systems in all it's forms including transit, highways, bikelanes, HOV, and sidewalks. Vancouver thought only transit would do the trick and that has been a massive failure as Vancouver {which is only the 25th largest Metro in NA} has some of the longest commutes.

[idunno]

Toronto isn't doing all that well in terms of commute times.

This article quotes a report that said Toronto had the worst commutes in North America.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/06...mmute-in-a-new-study-suggests-it-is.html

Vancouver placed 33rd overall (Best in Canada), compared to Toronto's 69th.

[Changing City]

Toronto CMA has higher transit use than Vancouver (24%). Ottawa CMA only has 18% transit use, lower than the 20% in Metro Vancouver.

[LeftCoaster]

Transportation in Toronto is one of the WORST things about the City.

Give your head a shake SSi

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Toronto CMA has higher transit use than Vancouver (24%). Ottawa CMA only has 18% transit use, lower than the 20% in Metro Vancouver.

Metro Vancouver's mode share for transit is increasing at a higher rate than the GTA's though. Metro Vancouver's grew 23.5% from 2006 to 2016 (and SoF that increase was 35%!), and GTA's grew 10.1% in the same time span. There's more momentum towards shifting people towards transit in MV and SoF, and we shouldn't stall that momentum by directing more money towards larger and larger highways. Make them more efficient, sure, but don't make them larger and wider with more lanes.

Besides, this thread is "SoF Rapid Transit" and not highways.

[osirisboy]

Highways are part of transit

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

There's more momentum towards shifting people towards transit in MV and SoF, and we shouldn't stall that momentum by directing more money towards larger and larger highways. Make them more efficient, sure, but don't make them larger and wider with more lanes.

Besides, this thread is "SoF Rapid Transit" and not highways.

I copied it over to the Road Infrastructure thread...

SoF really needs road (inc highway) upgrades, which are now slowly being done. They also need more transit (esp rapid transit) options.

[Aroundtheworld]

I'm very glad Surrey rejected (eventually) LRT.

Look at this thing crawl in Waterloo.

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