Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[ilikeredheads]

I would take anything that comes out from BVZ's mouth with an extremely high grain of salt. This guy is a politician, so he'll say whatever the people want to hear. Basically, a snake oil salesman.

Again, you'd have to extremely naive to believe upgrading the tracks (even if it were feasible) would not come from taxpayer's money.

[Metro-One]

Don’t forget the other cog in this wheel is Patrick Condon. You know, the guy who has been against every Skytrain project proposed over the last 15 years or more and has an extremely clear track record of cherry picking stats to support his half backed ideas that only exist in academia ideology and not practicality.

I read through their entire 65 page report. It is a meandering mess based on assumptions with little technical data or clear analytical methodologies.

The route meanders south from the order and north to the Fraser on its east west route. It would never compete with personal vehicles. It also misses many key population and commercial centers. Building new cities in the ALR (as proposed in the report!) is not a viable solution to this issue.

Also I really doubt CN would have ever agreed to such terms, no agency would. The Port Authority and Federal Government would also have something to say about it given how important that section of the corridor is for moving goods.

And the report itself can’t decide if the train would be akin to a commuter rail or urban tram, often switching back and forth from page to page.

In the end, half baked idea.

Now, preserving the corridor for some future use is a good idea though. Sections could be used for local rib lines in Chilliwack and Abbotsford that could feed into a far better more direct main line

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I went to the Cloverdale Valley Rail open house so I am repeating what I heard there including with what was said by Vander Zalm who sold the line to CN. The info meeting provided paphlets and speakers ïncluding Vander ZalmÇ about the nature of the corridor. The corridor is a freight line and CN could use it as such because the province logically wanted to make the most of limited rail infrastructure and seeing the Interurban had been cancelled, it made perfect sense.

The line was reserved if there was ever a resumption of passenger rail. In such a scenario, passenger rail would have FIRST priority over the line. CN could still use the line but and would have to work in good faith with BC Transit {and vice-versa} to optimize usage of the line that benefits both parties but when conflicts eventually arise and twinning of tracks and overpasses/ grade separations would have to be built and the costs would be born 100% by CN. This is VERY unique in NA and BC should take advantage of it.

Vanderzam dude has his facts or fake facts all messed up. CN built the connecting track from CN Hydro to join with the BC Hydro track at Livingston. The section between Lingston and Pratt(Cloverdale) was never sold to CN. The best resources I have say it was leased to CP. The highway #1 railway overpass also says CP Rail. BCR owns the line from Pratt to Roberts Bank. It was built by BC Harbour Commissioners Railway which was folded into BCR. BCR is the RTC from Livingston to Roberts Bank. All trains must contact BCR RTC to gain permission to travel the corridor, including SRY.

The TSB even calls it by its true name. CP Page Subdivision

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-in...15/r15v0191/r15v0191.html?pedisable=true

There are no 100% guarantee agreements regarding restoring passenger service and who pays for it. Since railways are federally regulated, they set the rules regarding the mixing of freight and passenger rail. 2019 rules don't allow LRT and freight to use the same track at the same time.

Sounds complicated? Yep, but it all works.

Here is a photo of the newly built CN track joining BC Hydro at Livingston.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/msdwilkie/5982489107

[Sheba]

As we're still at it, we should remember the other person in this unholy trinity.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The problem with these guys is that they each have different problems that all culminate into one giant wrong idea.

Rick Green's problem is he just wants to get elected and is looking for some kind of tentpole idea. Patrick Condon's problem is he's against encouraging long distance movement. Bill Vander Zalm's problem is he's a media whore who craves attention and seeks it out by catering to the lowest common denominator among the populace, the pocketbook, and will hitch his horse to any wagon that is promoting the cheaper alternative to taxpayers.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Bill Vander Zalm is the most lying and corrupt politician we have ever had in BC's history.

don't trust what he says. period.

[ssiguy]

The SkyTrain is a Langley connector and that's all. There is nothing wrong with that per se as the city does need good connections to Surrey Centre and NoF but little else. It only connects one Langley post-secondary to SC and absolutely no major employment areas between the two. SoF is an entire region and contrary to what Vancouver centric Translink thinks, the commuting/shopping/school patterns do not stop where the gas tax does. How do we connect all those other post secondaries, how do we connect the THOUSANDS of employees to their homes in the massive Gloucester industrial area that doesn't even have a single bus serving the entire area, and how do we connect Abby/Chill to Surrey/Langley? What exactly are YOUR proposals?

Buses are not optional as HWY#1 is a ridiculous 2 lanes in each direction and is permanently clogged and the province has cancelled most of the widening that should have been completed 30 years ago. That little 4 lane road carries a staggering 106,000 passengers a day. It is so congested that accidents are up 40% since 2014 and first reponders have also joined the call to widen the road to at least 8 lanes because the highway and even the ramps to it are constantly blocked so fire, ambulance, and police response times are down significantly putting people's lives at risk. A SkyTrain xtension will do absolutely nothing to relieve this.

To get the Valley moving we either build the Valley rail line or we widen HWY#1 to 10 lanes to Abby and 8 to Chilliwack, build the Serpentine Expressway, bring HWY#15 up to complete freeway standards and 6 lanes, twin all of 16th Ave which is clogged most of the day to the now huge number of transports serving Campbell Heights commercial park, twin all of Glover Road, twin the entire Fraser HWY, bring the Langley By-pass up to complete freeway standards, and twin all routes heading to Gloucester commercial area. Of course in EVERY other city on the planet this would have already been done but this is Vancouver and BC where roads {regardless of need or safety} are akin to the Devil incarnate.

Saying you refuse to build or improve roads sounds very touchy-feely to the urban crowd but if that is the mantra then a huge regional transit must be built. Those are the ONLY 2 options available so which do you propose? You may support the SkyTrain but to think that will relieve any of the congestion problems, connect the Valley, and serve Gloucester commercial district is laughable.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The SkyTrain is a Langley connector and that's all. There is nothing wrong with that per se as the city does need good connections to Surrey Centre and NoF but little else. It only connects one Langley post-secondary to SC and absolutely no major employment areas between the two. SoF is an entire region and contrary to what Vancouver centric Translink thinks, the commuting/shopping/school patterns do not stop where the gas tax does. How do we connect all those other post secondaries, how do we connect the THOUSANDS of employees to their homes in the massive Gloucester industrial area that doesn't even have a single bus serving the entire area, and how do we connect Abby/Chill to Surrey/Langley? What exactly are YOUR proposals?

You really need to post things in the appropriate spot. I copied this to the Road Infrastructure thread as most of it is better suited there. Same with the government - aim your comments at the appropriate people and you're more likely to see action.

I haven't seen anyone here say that roadwork isn't needed SoF. Hell I don't even drive and I've gotten after one of the Surrey planners about it (not the exact spots you're complaining about here) and have seen some improvements.

Yes the Expo extension down Fraser Hwy is a Langley connector - that's what it's supposed to be. It's not some be-all that will solve every transportation issue SoF. I've drawn maps for practically everywhere *within Metro Vancouver / TransLink jurisdiction* of the current bus routes (or lack thereof) along with suggested changes and sent it to TransLink - have you?

FYI I grew up SoF and still have family there. Also a number of the TransLink planners live there (apparently around Fleetwood) - why do you think Surrey has seen a lot more new service hours compared to the rest of the region?

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The SkyTrain is a Langley connector and that's all. There is nothing wrong with that per se as the city does need good connections to Surrey Centre and NoF but little else. It only connects one Langley post-secondary to SC and absolutely no major employment areas between the two. SoF is an entire region and contrary to what Vancouver centric Translink thinks, the commuting/shopping/school patterns do not stop where the gas tax does. How do we connect all those other post secondaries, how do we connect the THOUSANDS of employees to their homes in the massive Gloucester industrial area that doesn't even have a single bus serving the entire area, and how do we connect Abby/Chill to Surrey/Langley? What exactly are YOUR proposals?

Buses are not optional as HWY#1 is a ridiculous 2 lanes in each direction and is permanently clogged and the province has cancelled most of the widening that should have been completed 30 years ago. That little 4 lane road carries a staggering 106,000 passengers a day. It is so congested that accidents are up 40% since 2014 and first reponders have also joined the call to widen the road to at least 8 lanes because the highway and even the ramps to it are constantly blocked so fire, ambulance, and police response times are down significantly putting people's lives at risk. A SkyTrain xtension will do absolutely nothing to relieve this.

To get the Valley moving we either build the Valley rail line or we widen HWY#1 to 10 lanes to Abby and 8 to Chilliwack, build the Serpentine Expressway, bring HWY#15 up to complete freeway standards and 6 lanes, twin all of 16th Ave which is clogged most of the day to the now huge number of transports serving Campbell Heights commercial park, twin all of Glover Road, twin the entire Fraser HWY, bring the Langley By-pass up to complete freeway standards, and twin all routes heading to Gloucester commercial area. Of course in EVERY other city on the planet this would have already been done but this is Vancouver and BC where roads {regardless of need or safety} are akin to the Devil incarnate.

Saying you refuse to build or improve roads sounds very touchy-feely to the urban crowd but if that is the mantra then a huge regional transit must be built. Those are the ONLY 2 options available so which do you propose? You may support the SkyTrain but to think that will relieve any of the congestion problems, connect the Valley, and serve Gloucester commercial district is laughable.

The problem is that the rail proposal is a even worst option to move people around in the region. It's literally a rail to nowhere, and even the most optimistic projections of ridership indicates that potential ridership on the old interurban line would be a fraction of the ridership potential of a Langley Skytrain.

Also add in that interurban line is slow; Translink did a engineering review of the line compared to other options and found that the transit time to get from Surrey to Langley was double that of a potential route along the Fraser Highway, either be it a Bus Rapid Transit solution, or a Skytrain.

For a line that has a fraction of the ridership potential, is significantly slower, and is more expensive to boot, it makes no fiscal sense to put tax dollars on the line when there's clearly better options to connect Surrey and Langley.

[Migrant_Coconut]

And by a "fraction," we're talking less than three hundred thousand people - that's the Fraser Valley Express' ridership over the whole year. The Canada Line moves that many people on a single weekend.

Upgrade the FVX to light rail, and that increases to 600-800k/yr - not even half of the WCE's 2.5M ridership. Most of the potential is in Surrey and Langley, and why would they want to pay $1.2 billion for a two hour train ride with a one hour wait?

[retro_orange]

I don't get what they are thinking. Sure there were communities built around the interurban stations and were of scale that the interurban service could handle. Since it was removed in the 50's there has been over 60 years of development that is not centered around an interurban transit service but almost entirely built around individual car use. There are only shreds of the original community layouts that were accessible to this train line. What has replaced it cannot be serviced efficiently. There would need to either be a ton of community shuttles making all sorts of random circuitous routes to service the cul-de-sacs and dead end neighborhoods to get people to the train stations and /or massive parking lots around these stations. Stupid. These old men think things are the same as when they were kids. How can they be so blind.

[ssiguy]

I live in Cloverdale and have talked to people in the area and at the Valley Rail meeting and there was an interesting perspective to SkyTrain that people at Translink and urban planners don't want to hear about............. a fear {yes, fear} of SkyTrain.

Due to Vancouver overt capitalistic and Wild West real estate mentality, SkyTrain has proven great for transit usage and development but simultaneously destroyed many communities and displaced thousands. The arrival of SkyTrain in Vancouver ALWAYS equates to mass evictions. Thousands of low income/students/seniors have been forceably evicted from their homes due to the corresponding sky rocketing of housing prices around the stations and along the corridor as they create. and the renovictions that result. Hell Burnaby as in it's planning policy that 1500 rental units will be destroyed near Metrotown to be replaced condos they will never afford.

For non-owners and lower income people in the Valley, SkyTrain will be their eviction notice just as a first ultra-sound is in Vancouver. I very much doubt that you would get this kind of feeding frenzy with a resurrected interurban and that could save thousands of people their place to live.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I live in Cloverdale and have talked to people in the area and at the Valley Rail meeting and there was an interesting perspective to SkyTrain that people at Translink and urban planners don't want to hear about............. a fear {yes, fear} of SkyTrain.

Due to Vancouver overt capitalistic and West West real estate mentality, SkyTrain has proven great for transit usage and development but simultaneously destroyed many communities and displaced thousands. The arrival of SkyTrain in Vancouver ALWAYS equates to mass evictions. Thousands of low income/students/seniors have been forceably evicted from their homes due to the corresponding sky rocketing of housing prices around the stations and along the corridor as they create. and the renovictions that result. Hell Burnaby as in it's planning policy that 1500 rental units will be destroyed near Metrotown to be replaced condos they will never afford.

For non-owners and lower income people in the Valley, SkyTrain will be their eviction notice just as a first ultra-sound is in Vancouver. I very much doubt that you would get this kind of feeding frenzy with a resurrected interurban and that could save thousands of people their place to live.

That's because nobody is going to ride the interurban because it would double their commute time compared to other options, and goes no where.

A resurrected interurban line would be a massive, multi-billion dollar white elephant that would put a massive hole in Translink's bottom line.

And that's ignoring that Vander Zalm is lying through his teeth, like he usually does; he does know how to play to basic, knee jerk instincts though to drum up support.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I live in Cloverdale and have talked to people in the area and at the Valley Rail meeting and there was an interesting perspective to SkyTrain that people at Translink and urban planners don't want to hear about............. a fear {yes, fear} of SkyTrain.

Due to Vancouver overt capitalistic and West West real estate mentality, SkyTrain has proven great for transit usage and development but simultaneously destroyed many communities and displaced thousands. The arrival of SkyTrain in Vancouver ALWAYS equates to mass evictions. Thousands of low income/students/seniors have been forceably evicted from their homes due to the corresponding sky rocketing of housing prices around the stations and along the corridor as they create. and the renovictions that result. Hell Burnaby as in it's planning policy that 1500 rental units will be destroyed near Metrotown to be replaced condos they will never afford.

For non-owners and lower income people in the Valley, SkyTrain will be their eviction notice just as a first ultra-sound is in Vancouver. I very much doubt that you would get this kind of feeding frenzy with a resurrected interurban and that could save thousands of people their place to live.

Rail for the Valley Valley Rail is right to be wary of redevelopment.... and completely 100% misinformed about what causes it (though given its "leadership," it's not entirely their fault). City planning and rezoning creates mass evictions and wrecks communities. It's entirely possible to zone for a SkyTrain corridor full of six-storey midrises like Cambie, an interurban line full of megacondos like Surrey First's light rail plan, or nothing at all like Nanaimo to 29th.

And by Surrey First's plan, I mean NO plans to preserve existing development, NO plans for townhomes or walkups or any "missing middle" housing, a whole lot of adverts for condos, and horror stories from tenants along KGB and 104th facing potential buyouts and demovictions. Transit supports higher density, and the bigger the project the more the density, but actual redevelopment depends entirely on what City Council wants to achieve with the neighbourhood.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I live in Cloverdale and have talked to people in the area and at the Valley Rail meeting and there was an interesting perspective to SkyTrain that people at Translink and urban planners don't want to hear about............. a fear {yes, fear} of SkyTrain.

Due to Vancouver overt capitalistic and West West real estate mentality, SkyTrain has proven great for transit usage and development but simultaneously destroyed many communities and displaced thousands. The arrival of SkyTrain in Vancouver ALWAYS equates to mass evictions. Thousands of low income/students/seniors have been forceably evicted from their homes due to the corresponding sky rocketing of housing prices around the stations and along the corridor as they create. and the renovictions that result. Hell Burnaby as in it's planning policy that 1500 rental units will be destroyed near Metrotown to be replaced condos they will never afford.

For non-owners and lower income people in the Valley, SkyTrain will be their eviction notice just as a first ultra-sound is in Vancouver. I very much doubt that you would get this kind of feeding frenzy with a resurrected interurban and that could save thousands of people their place to live.

An interesting perspective. It certainly clarifies some people's objections to skytrain. You living in Cloverdale also helps explain your support for the interurban route, that is definitely one of the areas that would benefit. I don't fully buy the real estate fear. Clearly there is displacement in some areas like metro town, but Skytrain has been around since 1986. Are rents different in older buildings in the Patterson area, East Van, New West or Surrey Center near Skytrain versus nearby areas without? I suspect a bit, but I also suspect the rents in those shiny condos at metrotown will come down in 30 or 40 years to be the new affordable rentals... maybe about the time older housing stock in Patterson starts being replaced with new buildings to start the cycle again...

[ssiguy]

The problem with that is that in the meantime renters have no where to live and the condos that relace these people are left vacant waiting for a flip.............when you commodify a city you commodify the people that live there. Metrotown is losing all of it's rental housing very much with the blessings of it's City Hall. Coquitlam has lost 1400 renters around it's new SkyTrain stations all to make way for empty condos used as safety deposit boxes. Cambie of course is a complete write-off as illustrated by Marine Gateway where the first phase of 220 condos sold were sold to just 80 people.

People in the Valley left Vancouver because it was completely unaffordable even for those making more than 100k. The last thing we want is for our neighbours to be thrown out yet again and have to move further inland to Abby or Chill just to enjoy a modest standard of living that the rest of the country takes for granted. SkyTrain is good at moving commuters but unfortunately due to BC's corrupt politicians it is also very good at moving people out of their homes.

Politicians love nothing more than a SkyTrain ribbon cutting ceremony but you can be damn sure they won't be there helping everyone load the moving truck. In an odd twist of logic, renters tend to be more transit dependent and when SkyTrain comes it is the renters who pay the price with evictions and longer commutes.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with that is that in the meantime renters have no where to live and the condos that relace these people are left vacant waiting for a flip.............when you commodify a city you commodify the people that live there. Metrotown is losing all of it's rental housing very much with the blessings of it's City Hall. Coquitlam has lost 1400 renters around it's new SkyTrain stations all to make way for empty condos used as safety deposit boxes. Cambie of course is a complete write-off as illustrated by Marine Gateway where the first phase of 220 condos sold were sold to just 80 people.

People in the Valley left Vancouver because it was completely unaffordable even for those making more than 100k. The last thing we want is for our neighbours to be thrown out yet again and have to move further inland to Abby or Chill just to enjoy a modest standard of living that the rest of the country takes for granted. SkyTrain is good at moving commuters but unfortunately due to BC's corrupt politicians it is also very good at moving people out of their homes.

Politicians love nothing more than a SkyTrain ribbon cutting ceremony but you can be damn sure they won't be there helping everyone load the moving truck. In an odd twist of logic, renters tend to be more transit dependent and when SkyTrain comes it is the renters who pay the price with evictions and longer commutes.

As pointed out by many as a failure of Skytrain it only serves a limited portion of Vancouver but high housing costs are universal. Marine Gateway and adjacent projects is an interesting point. They were built mainly on old strip malls/car dealerships, not sure they displaced anyone. Sure as new condos rents are high but adding hundreds of new units without losing units has to be a win for affordability. The rest of Cambie was mainly single family housing. Those houses went way up in price...but the 4 to 6 story condos going up probably each have 5 to 10 units for each single family home lost. The average cost of those units would also be less than the cost of a single family home in Vancouver away from Skytrain...so again probably a win for affordability. What needs to happen is more targeted affordable housing, not less transit (because if you think the same thing won't happen with LRT you have not looked at the rationale for most North American LRT projects....the Surrey business case for LRT was basically it will spur development).

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with that is that in the meantime renters have no where to live and the condos that relace these people are left vacant waiting for a flip.............when you commodify a city you commodify the people that live there. Metrotown is losing all of it's rental housing very much with the blessings of it's City Hall. Coquitlam has lost 1400 renters around it's new SkyTrain stations all to make way for empty condos used as safety deposit boxes. Cambie of course is a complete write-off as illustrated by Marine Gateway where the first phase of 220 condos sold were sold to just 80 people.

People in the Valley left Vancouver because it was completely unaffordable even for those making more than 100k. The last thing we want is for our neighbours to be thrown out yet again and have to move further inland to Abby or Chill just to enjoy a modest standard of living that the rest of the country takes for granted. SkyTrain is good at moving commuters but unfortunately due to BC's corrupt politicians it is also very good at moving people out of their homes.

Politicians love nothing more than a SkyTrain ribbon cutting ceremony but you can be damn sure they won't be there helping everyone load the moving truck. In an odd twist of logic, renters tend to be more transit dependent and when SkyTrain comes it is the renters who pay the price with evictions and longer commutes.

The market here is what it is. "just to enjoy a modest standard of living that the rest of the country takes for granted." People are certainly welcome to move to Saskatchewan or Manitoba to take advantage of the cheaper rents. People shouldn't complain when other options are available.

Transit serves to help move tons of people around as cost efficiently and practically as possible. The interurban falls very short of those ideals.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem with that is that in the meantime renters have no where to live and the condos that relace these people are left vacant waiting for a flip.............when you commodify a city you commodify the people that live there. Metrotown is losing all of it's rental housing very much with the blessings of it's City Hall. Coquitlam has lost 1400 renters around it's new SkyTrain stations all to make way for empty condos used as safety deposit boxes. Cambie of course is a complete write-off as illustrated by Marine Gateway where the first phase of 220 condos sold were sold to just 80 people.

People in the Valley left Vancouver because it was completely unaffordable even for those making more than 100k. The last thing we want is for our neighbours to be thrown out yet again and have to move further inland to Abby or Chill just to enjoy a modest standard of living that the rest of the country takes for granted. SkyTrain is good at moving commuters but unfortunately due to BC's corrupt politicians it is also very good at moving people out of their homes.

Politicians love nothing more than a SkyTrain ribbon cutting ceremony but you can be damn sure they won't be there helping everyone load the moving truck. In an odd twist of logic, renters tend to be more transit dependent and when SkyTrain comes it is the renters who pay the price with evictions and longer commutes.

I'm going to repeat what others have said on here. It's not Skytrain - it's city planning and rezoing.

The Canada Line opened Aug 2009 and it's only been more recently that Cambie has been rezoned and new buildings have happened. The Millennium Line opened Jan 2002 and people here complain about the lack of density along most of it. Hell the first part of the Expo Line opened Dec 1985 and large stretches of it have barely changed.

Metrotown Station had rental housing next to it for decades after Skytrain was built. It was Burnaby's former mayor who allowed for rental buildings to be torn down and not replaced - the current mayor has reversed course on that and new rental buildings are being proposed (inc for Metrotown).

I'm hearing a lot of FUD - fear, uncertainty and doubt. The facts don't back up Cloverdale being changed into a forest of luxury skyscrapers because of a couple Skytrain stations along it's edge (namely Fraser Hwy between 176th and 184th). It would be worthwhile to find out if Surrey would even allow any buildings with double digit floors to be built in the area - if it's all to be kept lowrise, I doubt developers would bother to build much of anything in the area.

[xd_1771]

In case anyone's curious, the "passenger rights agreement" that's been mentioned constantly by the Community Rail people does actually exist (here is their document on it: https://southfrasercommunityrail.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Master-Agreement-Synopsis.pdf), although it's a misnomer to suggest that this agreement covers use of the entire corridor as it actually only covers a shared segment with CP - same as the one highlighted in this map from the TransLink report.

So passenger use of the SRY would likely require its own agreement with the owners, for which SFCR has not yet put out any proposal that I am aware of.

Going back to the master rights agreement, SFCR has refused released the full text (their words: "A full copy of this Master Agreement is available for review to substantiate it’s authenticity but it will not be released from our possession." Gee, I wonder why... ). Anyway, after digging into some old news articles, I found that supposedly what it allows is for the use of "33% of capacity" for passenger services. So that's what, 8 hours of a 24 hour day can be used for passenger service and the other 16 must remain freight? Not exactly worth drooling about. See: https://drive.google.com/file/d/18SvH9HBY7dgD9rwIlLTp_6smImWmhE2j/view?usp=sharing

Worth noting: CP themselves have previously resisted the idea that the text of the agreement necessarily means that we can use the line for passenger service for free. See this article in 2010 when the rights were renewed by BC Hydro at the time:

CP spokesman Mike LoVecchio said he "has no idea" what the agreement means for future passenger service.

"It's true that Hydro retains the right to operate a passenger service, but Mayor Green's interpretation is his own," he said.

From: https://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-province/20100107/281633891357990

[GlassCity]

The idea of a rail link to the Fraser Valley is a valid one, but so many of the moves taken by this group just destroy their credibility and really make their proposal harder to legitimately consider.

1. Their inflammatory language. Whether in their presentations or on their blog, they talk about how their proposal is the only smart way to go, there's caps and exclamation marks everywhere, they baselessly attack existing research done by reputable consultants without any more facts of their own other than "trust us."

2. The TransLink bashing. It's often hard to tell if they're actually a pro-Fraser Valley rail group and not just an anti-TransLink group. Again, both in their presentations and on their website, they talk about how wasteful TransLink is, how stupid TransLink is to go with SkyTrain, etc. Why treat TransLink so confrontationally if you'd arguably need their blessing to get your rail line through? What credible organization just openly shit talks other organizations?

3. Their plan is really half-baked. For example, it absolutely will not be anywhere close to the low price they keep quoting for building. For service, why do you need frequencies as high as they're proposing for a line that shows no signs of concurrent demand? Presenting anything as "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO" is not inspiring.

Overall, the idea of improvements for transit to the Valley is a good one. I take the Fraser Valley Express bus a couple times a week and it's always packed, and the data backs that up. Continued improvements to frequency, then maybe HOV lanes, and one day a commuter rail service all make sense. But when you're presenting your idea as oppositional to Surrey-Langley SkyTrain you sound like you care less about the promotion of your project than with the diminishment of another. Further connecting the Valley to Metro Van is good; kneecapping Surrey-Langley service is not at all worth this cost however. The Fraser Valley will doubtlessly become more integrated in the Metro Vancouver transit system, but this will not be the way it happens, nor should it, for all the reasons mentioned earlier.